May 4, 2018 10:48
6 yrs ago
2 viewers *
German term

Vatermörderkragen

German to English Art/Literary Textiles / Clothing / Fashion description of man\'s collar in portrait, early 1900s
This occurs in the description of what seems to be an official portrait of a possible Beamter. He is wearing this with a "Krawatte". I would like an English equivalent rather than writing "stiff/starched winged collar" but can't think of one. Many thanks for your ideas in advance.

Discussion

Herbmione Granger May 7, 2018:
gills? Xavier Marmier - 1869
https://books.google.de/books?id=ExELKiTGLtIC&pg=PA41&dq=par...
Le modeste Walther superbement paré : pantalon de nankin, gilet de velours à boutons de métal, redingote en drap marron, une cravate blanche, et un col de chemise dont les deux pointes s'élévent jusqu'au dessus des oreilles. En Allemagne, on appelle ces deux pointes vater- mcerder (des parricides); je ne sais pourquoi, si ce n'est parce qu'elles semblent menacer le ciel.
>The last sentence roughly translated: In Germany, the *two points* of the shirt collar [which lie just above the man's ears] are called vater-moerder (patricidal). I don't understand why, because they aren't menacing.

https://www.herrenhemden.de/Collar-Forms-1
http://www.americaspicturedpast.com/product/dag103-aristocra...
http://www.beevar.com/col-parricide-donc-vous-combinez-la-da...
Des célébrités comme Karl Lagerfeld jurent personnalisé Vatermörderkrägen.
freekfluweel May 7, 2018:
vadermoordenaar (Dutch) van Dale: (gills of a) stick-up / stand-up collar, (gills of
a) stick-up / stand-up choker

Proposed translations

+2
5 hrs
Selected

Gladstone collar

This applies in particular if the collar tips are folded over/forward, i.e., you'd be looking at the "Kläppchenkragen" variant of the Vatermörder. The wing tip collar is a modern descendant of the Gladstone. Here are a few references:
https://www.wholesaleclearance.co.uk/blog/reference-guide-to...
http://www.fatherbrown.de/anmerkungen/01-einfalt/03-die-sond...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collar_(clothing)
https://www.slideshare.net/suniltalekar1/elements-of-fashion...
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatermörder
https://www.gq-magazin.de/mode-stil/fashion-guides/article/w...
Peer comment(s):

agree Lancashireman : Your first reference is very persuasive. It mentions 'detachable', though I think this aspect might be redundant to the asker's context ("description of what seems to be an official portrait of a possible Beamter").
3 hrs
Thanks!
agree Graeme Currie : This looks good - see also https://www.pinterest.de/pin/101612535317623696/
1 day 17 hrs
Thanks!
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
5 mins

wingtip collar

Peer comment(s):

agree philgoddard : I don't believe this is a reference to extreme tightness.
4 hrs
disagree Graeme Currie : I have found several references to the wingtip as a later development of the "patricide collar". I think while wingtip is broadly correct, I would be tempted to use the 19th century name "patricide collar", as the German is no less obscure.
1 day 22 hrs
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6 mins

Winged Choker / Winged Collar

Would a winged choker or winged collar work here?
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1 hr
German term (edited): ein Vatermörderkragen

a murderously tight winged collar

"murderously tight" collates quite well in connection with clothing:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q="murderously tight"&oq="mu...
This gets the idea across if your description is subjective.
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2 hrs

chokehold collar

Collar has to be stiff and upright, it seems, to qualify as a Vatermörderkragen.

Compare with the following sources:

"Als Vatermörder wird ein steifer, vorne offener, hoher Stehkragen des Herrenoberhemdes bezeichnet. Die lose nach oben abstehenden spitzen Enden des Vatermörders reichen bis über das Kinn.[1]" https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatermörder

"By the end of the 19th century, stiff, upright collars gradually began to loosen and diminish in size. Doctors believed that stiff collars posed medical concerns for their patients and in 1917, a physician named Walter G. Walford published a book called “Dangers in Neckwear” where he claimed that ailments including eczema, headaches, vertigo, strokes, deafness and many other illnesses could be directly attributed to tight neckwear. He further claimed that be loosening the collar, one could swiftly recover from a variety of ailments." https://www.gentlemansgazette.com/evolution-neckwear-tie-cra...

Here are our top 9 #shirtproblems:

half shirt
naked wrists
dress blouse
miami vice collar
big guy in a little shirt
cover up
chokehold collar
too short sleeves
chokehold
https://tealapparel.com/category/pants/


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Note added at 4 hrs (2018-05-04 15:35:33 GMT)
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I was almost tempted to post "stiff upper tip" to emphasize that one characteristic that everybody seems to be ignoring here (Stehkragen) but that would have landed me in treacherous territory..
Peer comment(s):

neutral philgoddard : This gets almost no meaningful hits. Your last reference simply means a collar that's too tight.
1 hr
I could have simply said "stiff, upright collar" but that seemed too stiff and upright to me so I picked chokehold which seems to be its second most important feature...
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5 hrs

stand-up collar

As far as I can see this is the most usual name for this kind of garment. Just google it.
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8 hrs

detachable high collar

Detachable starched collars became commonly worn on men's shirts around 1850. The idea was to present a clean appearance to the world without the expense of laundering the whole shirt.
http://www.darcyclothing.com/shop/collars.html

Detachable High-Collar
Nicknamed the “father killer,” the detachable high-collar was a popular men’s accessory in the 19th century that was attached to the shirt by studs. Seemingly harmless, the collar was so stiff and tight that it actually could cut off a man’s circulation, causing asphyxia or an abscess of the brain. In an obituary for John Cruetzi in 1888, The New York Times wrote, “His head dropped over on his chest and then his stiff collar stopped the windpipe and checked the flow of blood through the already contracted veins, causing the death to ensue from asphyxia and apoplexy.” In 1912, a man named William F. Dillon died from a similar situation. “Mr. Dillon apparently suffered from an attack of indigestion which caused a slight swelling of his neck and the collar choked him to death,” the paper said.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/corsets-muslin-disease-and-mor...
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10 hrs

torture collar

This term would imply how torturous wearing this collar is.
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+1
1 day 23 hrs

patricide collar

The urban legend that a son slit his father's throat by accident with one of these collars appears to have led to the the name being adopted in English as well as German.
Example sentence:

There are many types of detachable collar, including the gloriously named patricide collar.

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23 hrs

soup-dipping collar

If French humour was still in style.

Titel T. M., Typografische Monatsblätter, Band 84;Band 1965
Mitwirkende Personen Schweizerischer Typographenbund
Original von Pennsylvania State University
Digitalisiert 18. Sept. 2009
Jahrhunderts nannte man einen mit langen Spitzen besetzten Hemdenkragen, wie er der damaligen Mode entsprach, einen parasite, das heißt einen Parasiten, einen Schmarotzer, weil er seiner Form wegen stets in Gefahr war, Suppen usw. mitzuessen. Aber diese scherzhafte Bezeichnung haben die Deutschen, als sie sie übernahmen, um sie zu übersetzen, mißverstanden. Sie verwechselten parasite mit dem lautlich anklingenden parricide (Vatermörder), vergleiche den Parricida ...

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Note added at 23 hrs (2018-05-05 10:28:46 GMT)
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Also in Duden:
https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Vatermoerder
[wohl volksetymologische Umdeutung der älteren Bezeichnung französisch parasite (= »Mitesser«, an den langen, nach oben gerichteten Ecken blieben leicht Speisereste hängen) zu: parricide = Vatermörder (1)] (scherzhaft) (früher getragener) hoher, steifer Kragen an Herrenhemden mit aufwärts bis an die Wangen ragenden Spitzen

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Note added at 1 day 20 hrs (2018-05-06 07:25:13 GMT)
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That should be soup-slurping or food-catching/mooching :)
For your purposes, 'Edwardian wing collar', which keeps some of the German flair, might be good.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-wing-collar.htm
The wing-collar shirt is thought to have originated during the Edwardian era in the early 1900s. It may have been popularized by the British monarch King Edward VII, who was typically known for "evening informal" attire. Edward VII might have worn a highly starched wing-collar shirt with a tailcoat and matching trousers.

https://www.cycleworld.com/2016/03/07/motogp-racing-motorcyc...
Look at the devices currently being tested; Yamaha and Ducati have shown stubby “moustache” winglets, located in the accelerated airflow moving around the fairing nose, and Honda’s look like the turned-up points of an Edwardian gentleman’s wing collar

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Note added at 2 days 21 hrs (2018-05-07 08:46:06 GMT)
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I personally like "pique-assiette" collar. No search hits, but it sounds like a real style that real people in Europe would wear.
Inspired by The Mooch:
https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/the-mooch.3347030/
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