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tour électrique
Ceinturage

Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

autour de la tension

English translation:

around the voltage

Added to glossary by Tony M
Oct 10, 2012 23:11
11 yrs ago
1 viewer *
French term

autour de la tension

French to English Tech/Engineering Electronics / Elect Eng Substation and power line
What is the significance of autour in this context

6.2 Conditions de couplage
Le couplage de l’installation de production au réseau HTB doit être assuré par un organe de coupure appartenant au producteur.
Il doit être possible dans la plage de fréquence 49 Hz – 51 Hz, et dans une plage de tension d'amplitude 10% autour de la tension de la prise du transformateur en service, limitée au domaine normal de fonctionnement du réseau.
Lors de son couplage, l’installation de production ne doit être couplée au réseau HTB que lorsque les conditions suivantes sont respectées :
écart de fréquence inférieur à 0,1 Hz, écart de tension inférieur à 10%,
écart de phase inférieur à 10°.
Proposed translations (English)
5 around the voltage
5 from the voltage
5 ±10% of nominal voltage
Change log

Oct 12, 2012 11:27: Tony M Created KOG entry

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (1): Tony M

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Discussion

chris collister Oct 15, 2012:
Occasionally, as happened today, in fact, I encounter equations or mathematical expressions which are simply not correct. The onus is on the client, not the translator, to make sure his copy contains no errors, and all I can do is point them out, very clearly!
As for "around" we would legitimately say that a parameter varies statistically "around" the mean with such and such a standard deviation.
Johannes Gleim Oct 15, 2012:
I do totally agree with Tony's recommendation. It is always a good idea to alert the client in such cases. And it protects the translator against all claims for damages, if they would arise.
Tony M Oct 14, 2012:
But... ...it is absolutely not within our remit as translators to 'correct' the source text to what we think, in all our technical knowledge, it ought to have been. If the writer wrote it like that, then here must have been a reason; that reason might have been technical incompetence or poor literacy, but the fact remains that it is not our job to — indeed, we positively must not — re-write the original to suit our own view of things. By all means, of course, do point out to the customer that this may be an unusual / questionable way of expressing the concepts involved, and invite clarification or a re-write. I have often found customers to be extremely amenable to this sort of suggestion, and indeed, they have often amended the FR version of their text to take account of my suggested modifications. But it really does have to be their decision and theirs only.
Johannes Gleim Oct 14, 2012:
continued To the subject: During my 40 years of industrial practise as switchgear designer, approvals engineer, railway planner and factory inspector, I never heard terms like “around the voltage” or “autour de la tension”. The voltage was always tolerated. The risks lies in the fact that the user can justify any use by unclear instructions, even the device is unable to support it. Please consider the short-circuit value if two systems are coupled the moment, where the instantaneous value of the grid voltage is phased 180 degree to that of the transformer. The compensatory current is heavier than a normal short-circuit (about 3 times higher) and can destroy the installation, ignite the housing and injure all workers.
Johannes Gleim Oct 14, 2012:
Dear Bob, I am very concerned about the levity some editors and/or translators deal with physical problems and have to return to this question therefore. Even you have to translate a text translated from another language, the responsibility for correct instructions remains with the editor or translator. In case of doubts please inform the client as incorrect translations and/or ambiguous instructions may involve you in product liability cases. And your insurance will cover the liability risks only if you act correspondingly.
Johannes Gleim Oct 12, 2012:
@ Bob de Denus Before using such strange circonscription for a tolerance range, please consider the Google results annexed to my proposal after having noted that you had found confirmations in the internet for the subject. I am rather convinced that there must be something overseen (like complements).
Tony M Oct 11, 2012:
Yes, but... ...all you say makes perfect technical sense, of course — but still involves extrapolation beyond the source text on the basis of own knowledge; in brief, over-interpretation.

Let us not lose sight of the fact that the source text says "dans une plage de tension d'amplitude 10% autour de la tension de..." — now 'plage d'amplitude de 10%' may well be regarded as ambiguous — but it does not, explicitly, say '±10%'; and in my view, it is dangerous to put words into the writer's mouth.

Surely the only safe and sensible solution here is to check carefully with the customer, now Bob has at least been warned of this lack of clarity / ambiguity.
Johannes Gleim Oct 11, 2012:
continued Back to the question: What would the editor say? Perhaps « Il doit être possible dans la plage de fréquence 49 Hz – 51 Hz, et dans une plage de la tension d'amplitude ±10% relative à la tension de la prise du transformateur en service, limitée au domaine normal de fonctionnement du réseau. »
Johannes Gleim Oct 11, 2012:
It is correct to translate "autour de" by "around"
but I have problems, to express myself this way. I wouldn't say "10% autour de la tension", either. This raises the question, what the editor (or translator?) intended to say? One approach is to consider the tolerance marge.

IEC 60083 was introduced 1983 to harmonize international voltages until 2008.
220 V from mainland Europe was tolerated +10% -6%.
240 V from UK was tolerated -10% +6%.
Since 2008 the nominal voltage for all European countries is 230 V ±10%.
It looks possible to me that this marge is the reason for the stipulated ±10% in the context.

Another possible reason is more technical. The greater the difference is between the grid voltage and the supplier's voltage the greater is the compensating current, the greater is the stress on the switchgears, lines and cables. This would be multiplied if frequency differs too and/or the phasing is not synchronised. If the given limits are exceeded or the coupling is not done within a determined period, the plant can be damaged. This may be explained in the further context, unknown to us.

Continued
Tony M Oct 11, 2012:
Couldn't agree more, Chris! That's the way I see it too, specifically, with this reference to 'plage'
chris collister Oct 11, 2012:
5 or 10? You would expect tolerances to be tight(er) during coupling, eg a frequency deviation of just 0.1Hz. We have to assume here that "écart" is both + and -, so the acceptable voltage deviation is less than +/-10%. This might imply that the range referred to above is also +/-10%, but that would mean that the "plage" is actually 20%! Strictly speaking, a "plage" doesn't have to be symmetric, and could be +8% - 2%, and asymmetry could still satisfy "autour" (though that would be unusual). Either way, it's poorly and ambiguously expressed, and I'm still not sure what the correct answer is!

Proposed translations

23 mins
Selected

around the voltage

It is not very well expressed, but I think this 'plage' of 10% around the nominal voltage probably really means ± 5% of nominal.

Either way, 'around' seems to me correct for 'autour'.

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Note added at 24 mins (2012-10-10 23:36:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I think ±5% is correct for the very reason that it does say 'autour'; it doesn't say '10% either side of...' (which would give a tolerance band of 20%)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2012-10-11 06:33:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I think the use of 'plage' + 'autour' indicates that it is a range of 10% around the nominal; I'm not convinced it is ±10%, which would in any case be quite ana alrmingly high figure here.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs (2012-10-11 07:24:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In any event, whether we talk about a tolerance of ±5 or 10%, the meaning of 'around' is correct for 'autour'.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Johannes Gleim : Sorry, the correct range of tolerance is ±10% (206 - 254 V). // I was active as approval engineer during that period of transition and had to consider the regulations.
2 hrs
Yes, I understand perfectly that the nominal mains voltage is like that; but here are talking about the coupling situation, which is a bit different! Anyway, 5 or 10 isn't what the basic question was about.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Yes thanks Tony, also found the expression around the nominal voltage in texts dealing with transformers"
4 hrs

from the voltage

"6.2 Conditions de couplage
Le couplage de l’installation de production au réseau HTB doit être assuré par un organe de coupure appartenant au producteur.
Il doit être possible dans la plage de fréquence 49 Hz – 51 Hz, et dans une plage de tension d'amplitude 10% autour de la tension de la prise du transformateur en service, limitée au domaine normal de fonctionnement du réseau.
Lors de son couplage, l’installation de production ne doit être couplée au réseau HTB que lorsque les conditions suivantes sont respectées :
écart de fréquence inférieur à 0,1 Hz,
écart de tension inférieur à 10%,
écart de phase inférieur à 10°."
=>
"... in a range of voltage varying/deviating up to 10% from the voltage on the contact with the transformer being in service ..."

this "coupling device" must be able to function even if the difference in voltage is up to 10% more or less compared to the voltage on the already active side.

The clue to this meaning of "autour de la tension" is in the conditions that must be satisfied to attempt a coupling:
"écart de tension inférieur à 10%"
As on one side is the "reference voltage" used to measure the difference in voltage, all the 10% difference (either way) is on the other side ("l’installation de production").

The voltage at the contact point with the grid does vary slightly, but its value at the time of coupling the production unit to the grid is the "reference value" from which the voltage delivered by the production unit can vary up to 10% (over or under the reference voltage).







Something went wrong...
2 hrs
French term (edited): 10% autour de la tension

±10% of nominal voltage

... plage de tension d'amplitude 10% autour de la tension de la prise du transformateur en service ...

First idea: The nominal voltage is 230 Vac ±10% acc. IEC 60038 and the European Harmonizations:

The 230 V standard has become the most widespread so standard 230 V equipment can be used in most parts of the world with the aid of an adapter or a change to the equipment's connection plug for the specific country. In the UK electricity is supplied at 230 V +10% - 6% (BS 7671 Appendix 2 section 14. )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity
Note: The tolerance is ±10% in Europe outside UK. Reason: The standard voltages were before 240 V in UK and 220 V in continental Europe.

Second idea: autour de la tension de la prise du transformateur en service => voltage tolerances at grid connection point transformer

Switch-off condition in German grids (DIN VDE 0126-1-1)
The average grid voltage (UAC) at the inverter as measured over a period of 10 minutes is limited to a maximum of 253 V in Germany according to DIN VDE 0126-1-1. If the inverter records that the 10-minute average exceeds this voltage limit, or if the 260 V limit is temporarily exceeded, it will switch off immediately.
http://files.sma.de/dl/7418/Netzanschluss-UEN083010.pdf

Grid-connected inverters currently include overvoltage
protection system which uses a moving 10-minute average
voltage. In case of 1.1-p.u. overvoltage condition [8] inverter
shall disconnect from grid.
http://upcommons.upc.edu/e-prints/bitstream/2117/11493/1/Muñ...

In fact 253 V is about 230 V +10%.

tension d'amplitude 10% autour de la tension de la prise =>
amplitude de voltage variations ±10% of nominal voltage

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2012-10-11 01:47:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Additional information may be found in the following article, and others:
http://www.concentrating-pv.org/darmstadt2009/pdf/papers/24-...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2012-10-11 06:25:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The network operrator is obliged to maintain voltages, frequency and within the statuary limits (207 - 253 V; 49 - 51 Hz). The supplier has to observe the same limits in general.

For technical reasons three conditions must be met for coupling to the grid:
The voltage difference must not exceed 10 % of the current grid voltage (i.e. must not differ by more than 10 %)
the frequency difference must not exceed 0.1 Hz (i.e. must not differ by more than 0.1 Hz) from the current frequency,
the phase must not differ by more than 10 % from the current grid phase.
Otherwise the compensating current would exceed the design values and trigger the safety devices in order to prevent damages to the installation.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2012-10-11 06:40:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Typing error correction (phase is measured by degrees):

For technical reasons three conditions must be met for coupling to the grid:
The voltage difference must not exceed 10 % of the current grid voltage (i.e. must not differ by more than 10 %)
the frequency difference must not exceed 0.1 Hz (i.e. must not differ by more than 0.1 Hz) from the current frequency,
the phase must not differ by more than 10° from the current grid phase.
Otherwise the compensating current would exceed the design values and trigger the safety devices in order to prevent damages to the installation.

The asked part of the phrase may be translated by: "the coupling must be possible ... within a range of voltages differing by less than 10% of the (current grid) voltage". I omitted "amplitudes" to facilitate the phrasing.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day10 hrs (2012-10-12 09:48:17 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

I googled for "transformer" "around the voltage" and found a lot of hits. I opened the first ten accessible links (not filtered), but found no phrase confirming the questionable use of “around the” for indicating a tolerance range. Contrary to this “around the” is used to indicate the locations. In addition “around the voltage” is complemented by additional nouns like “source”, “limitations” “RAM”, divider box”, “resonant frequency”, “rise issue” and “windings”, or by verbs like “to center”.

This all confirms my objections against this phraseology. So I strongly discourage you to use such non-professional terms.


A hybrid distribution transformer is provided ..
.. to create a bypass around the voltage source converter ..
.. and second windings wound around the core ..
http://www.google.com/patents/US20100220499

In order to work around the voltage and current limitations of a single device, several capacitors are often connected in series and parallel banks.
http://www.richieburnett.co.uk/parts.html

Nominally, all of the EU (with the exception of the Isle of Man and Gibraltar, who are at 240V) is supposed to center around the voltage of 230V single phase. Becaause the mainland countries were all at 220 and the UK and Ireland were at 240V, they were allowed to vary by the aburd amount of +10%/−6% (216.2V to 253V) and this was made worse by being widened to 230V ±10% (207V to 253V) in 2008.
http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1...

.. and because of the phase transitions around the resonant frequency of the tuned circuits, ..
http://www.hans-egebo.dk/Tutorial/amplifiers.htm

A transformer is a static unit featuring two or more windings which by ..... then the screws around the RAM and lastly the screws around the voltage regulators
http://www.linguee.de/englisch-deutsch/uebersetzung/alternat...

Voltage transformer with voltage divider ..
.. arranged in a box shape around the divider resistor ..
http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/5883508.html

The primary and secondary windings for each phase are wound with the HV winding around the voltage winding, as shown in ..
http://sydney.edu.au/engineering/electrical/people/ruihong.c...

So how do you get around the voltage rise issue?
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1837654

When connected it seems to show only around the voltage of whatever battery is on charge, and indicates a charge rate of 0.2 Amps.
http://www.ybw.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-282669.html
(Note: strange expression acc. MHO)

Anything over around 1300 / 1400 KV has to be underground ( or at least insulated cable) as this is around the voltage limit for open uninsulated conductors
https://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=SaLpGpCyphI&page=1
Peer comment(s):
neutral Daryo : the range is 10% over or under, but 10% from the voltage in the grid at the contact point at the time of coupling, not from 10% from some nominal voltage - that's what is said in the ST
1 hr
This is correct, but was not asked. The problem was to translate "autour de la tension".
Something went wrong...
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