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remontage
diabolo
Nov 11, 2009 10:18
14 yrs ago
2 viewers *
French term

Hunier volant

French to English Other Ships, Sailing, Maritime schooner rigging
I am translating a website on a early 20th century schooner. It includes a description of the sails. This follows from my previous question. The sail I cannot find a translation for is: hunier volant. I would be grateful for any suggestions. Many thanks.
Proposed translations (English)
5 +4 upper topsail
3 +2 flying topsail
2 +2 upper top sail
References
Wiki:

Discussion

Tony M Nov 12, 2009:
Quite, Graham! Alex, as the NS OED definition I quoted in my answer makes clear, there are two fundamental types of topsail — the ones we are dealing with here seem to refer to the rectangular upper and lower topsails on the fore-mast, rather than the alternative more or less triangular type rigged above the gaff-rigged mainsail.
Graham macLachlan Nov 12, 2009:
gaff topsail in French: "flèche" consider the evolution of the sail starting with a single square sail on a mast to which some innovator adds another sail above; a topsail is a venerable thing indeed!
Bourth (X) Nov 12, 2009:
Thanks Graham Interesting indeed! All falls into place for me (never contested your or Michael's knowledge btw, just latching onto details and looking for explanations; otherwise I might have entered my Discussion comment as an Answer). Yes, the vessel in my book must be a topsail schooner with gaff topsail on the main, as you say. These things are confusing if, like me, you don't know that a topsail can be both a "hunier" and ... what's the French for a "gaff topsail"? ... yet that unless specified otherwise a topsail is a "hunier" (if I understand correctly) (a bit like "whales" being understood to be only baleines since cachalots, a whale subset in English, a cétacé subset in French, is a different animal for the French).
Michael GREEN Nov 12, 2009:
All this is very interesting ... and I for one am always ready to acknowledge Graham's expertise (gained from hands-on experience, and he still actually works in the maritime world, unlike the rest of us), but I hope we haven't lost sight of the fact that Melanie was looking for a translation of "hunier volant", to which she received a perfectly correct answer (from Graham) which received 4 "agrees" shortly after posting her question yesterday ....
Graham macLachlan Nov 12, 2009:
well, sounds to me that you are describing a gaff topsail on the main ( a fore-and-aft sail which is set above a gaff); a topsail schooner would have a square topsail, that's what makes it a topsail schooner; a fore-and-after with gaff topsails on both masts and no square sails would be a schooner, not a topsail schooner; a gaff topsail is not an "important" sail, it is for fair weather; a square topsail is a driving sail, like a spinnaker
Bourth (X) Nov 12, 2009:
As I said "FWIW" The picture of this schooner is cut off just aft of the main mast, so not much detail on the afterrigging, but you can make out the main mast with a second mast attached at the top, to which is attached what is presumably the "main topsail" (there being fore upper and fore lower topsails on the forward mast extension, th) since the legend indicates the "main topsail halyard" on what must be the "mât de hune" since the legend shows the "étai de mat de hune", a cable connecting the top of this main mast extension to the top of the forward mast (at the bottom of the forward "hune"). This sail is not the "square" type like the "huniers" but a triangular one with a boom. There is another similar sail below it, attached to the same boom (gaff?) at the top.
I suppose this rigging with two square topsails on the forward mast and a (basically) triangular topsail on the main mast is not the only option for a topsail schooner, but if the vessel in question is like that shown, i.e. with "huniers" ("voile carrée" a/c to Lexis) forward and triangular topsail aft, then it might need to be specified. Presumably "topsail" does not indicate sail shape as "hunier" does.
Graham macLachlan Nov 12, 2009:
As Tony says "fore" refers to the mast and a schooner would only have topsails on the fore mast (so no need to point this out); in fact, a hierarchy of two-masted rigs would go : schooner, topsail schooner, brigantine, brig... look them up to see what I mean
Tony M Nov 11, 2009:
Red herring? I think that's probably a bit of a red herring, Alex: I feel sure the fore/main simply refers to which mast the sail is on (remember that on a schooner, the after mast is the main-mast. In practice, both masts could have a tops'l (or two).

Seems to be confirming that volant = upper, whichever mast it's on.
Bourth (X) Nov 11, 2009:
Fore? In Gallimard's bilingual version (Marine d'hier et d'aujourd'hui) of Dorling Kindersley's "Ships and Sailing, Today and Yesterday", a double topsail schooner / goélette à double hunier is shown, on which the hunier volant is shown as "FORE upper topsail" and hunier fixe as "FORE lower topsail". On the aftermast is a "MAIN topsail". FWIW.
Michael GREEN Nov 11, 2009:
Thank you Graham, you're a gentleman ! I'll take a peek when I have a moment.
As I may have mentioned, there's a photo of the Maria Asumpta on the cover of my copy of "Guide des gréements traditionnels".
Lovely boat ...
Graham macLachlan Nov 11, 2009:
yes Mike, there are quite a number floating around some Welsh guys set up a Facebook page which has a couple of hundred photos on it : http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=27943350305
Michael GREEN Nov 11, 2009:
Sadly, she went to the bottom... due to "human error" - do you have any pics of your days as bosun on her, BTW Graham?
Melanie Uniacke (asker) Nov 11, 2009:
What an absolutely stunning boat! Lucky you....
Graham macLachlan Nov 11, 2009:
just for the anecdote I sailed on this beauty for about five years in my youth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Asumpta

Proposed translations

+4
13 mins
Selected

upper topsail

for the reasons I explained in your question for hunier "fixe"

please compare:

upper topsail
http://www.infovisual.info/05/065_en.html

hunier volant
http://www.mandragore2.net/dico/lexique2/navires2/trois-mats...
Peer comment(s):
agree Carol Gullidge : topsail (1 word) (not forgetting the "upper")
10 mins
indeed, thanks Carol
agree Michael GREEN : Yes - "topsail", not "top sail" :o) // "tops'l" indeed Graham ... but let us not be too picky about these things ;o)
36 mins
hi Mike, a salty sea dog like you would say "tops'l" I'm sure!
agree Clive Phillips : Kashew's very useful reference indicates that the flying topsail is always the upper (square) topsail, and the fixed topsail is always the lower (square) topsail.
5 hrs
thanks
agree Michel F. Morin
5 hrs
thanks
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you for your help Graham. I seemed to have provoked quite a discussion!"
+2
5 mins

upper top sail

according to several Internet references


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 mins (2009-11-11 10:25:31 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

load this pdf:
www.library.uu.nl/digiarchief/dip/diss/2002-0905-111545/c4....
then search "Hunier"
Peer comment(s):
agree mimi 254
5 mins
agree Pierre POUSSIN
45 mins
Something went wrong...
+2
2 hrs

flying topsail

In the light of your other question, I think that 'volant' does indeed need to be translated by 'flying' — the term is very common in rigging descriptions for EN ships, though can be applied to all sorts of different types of sail (e.g. flying jib, flying topgallant, etc.), depending on the exact coinfiguration of the rig in question.

I believe it specifically means that the sail does not have a 'fixed point' at even one of its corners.

There are some excellent resources abou sailing ships out there on the 'Net, in both FR and EN, so I suggest you do a bit of image searching, which should clear things up for you in your particular context.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2009-11-11 13:45:30 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Note this definition of 'topsail' from (the admittedly non-expert!) NS OED:

Naut. In a square-rigged vessel, the sail, or (in larger ships) either of two sails, next above the lower sail. In a fore-and-aft rigged vessel, a square or triangular sail set above the gaff.

Hence the use of 'upper' topsail would imply that there are two of them, which might or might not be the case for a schooner, depending on its size and rig.

Interesting to note the alternative definition for fore-and-aft rigs, which might well apply to our schooner?

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2009-11-11 16:52:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Although this page refers to a magnificent square-rigger and so probably isn't quite applicable to our perhaps more modest schooner, I couldn't resist posting it for the beauty of the illustrations. As it comes from a FR source, I assume it ought o be possible to go back to the original language, but in the meantime, they do make it clear that flying = upper, at least as far as her topsails are concerned. Enjoy!

http://pamir.chez-alice.fr/Voiliers/Classe_A/Pamir/Planswe.h...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2009-11-11 16:53:32 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Clearly, my hypothesis about the reasons for referring to it as 'flying' were completely wrong!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2009-11-11 17:00:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Pour la petite histoire, I was fortunate enough in my younger days to work with an old mariner (he disliked the term sailor!) who had actually been a young hand on tall ships in the early years of the 20th century. His tales of first-hand experiences were just wonderful!
Note from asker:
Much as I prefer "flying topsail" as it is closer to the French, the website also refers to what I think is the "lower topsail" (see my other question which I was obliged to post separately "hunier fixe") - therefore for the sake of consistency I shall probably use "lower topsail" and "upper topsail". Though your wonderful link to The Pamir suggests I might be able to use "staying topsail" for the "hunier fixe" which would be even better. Still pondering!
Peer comment(s):
neutral Michael GREEN : I'm no expert when it comes to square-riggers (or anything else, come to that) but not only does the esteemed macLachlan think it should be "upper topsail", but so does my Gourseau (Dic. des termes de marine).
9 mins
Thanks, Michael! Since the term 'flying' is indeed used, it seems odd that it shouldn't apply to 'volant'; I suspect these are just variant terminologies.
agree FrenchPhD : yep.
54 mins
Thanks!
agree kashew : It should be this logically - but it's a complex subject(for a landlubber like me!) Sail shape (square or triangular) probably comes into it.
1 hr
Thanks, J! I believe 'flying' refers more to the position it is rigged in than its actual shape.
neutral Graham macLachlan : nice to be esteemed, I presume the schooner in this case is a topsail schooner with split topsails (as opposed to a full or deep topsail)
5 hrs
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

2 hrs
Reference:

Wiki:

Le hunier est une voile carrée supérieure à la grand-voile qui se trouve sur le mât de hune. Elle est fixée en dessous du perroquet.

A l'origine, très grande voile, puissante et nécessitant beaucoup de gabiers pour la gréer, elle fut divisée en deux au XIXe siècle, devenant hunier "fixe" (inférieur) et hunier "volant" (supérieur). Les voiles étant nommées en fonction de leur position ou du mât sur lequel elles sont attachées, sur un trois-mâts barque, on a donc un petit hunier (dit de misaine), et un grand hunier.

Pour les voiliers carrés (avec des voiles carrées sur tous les mâts) le hunier d'artimon devient le perroquet fixe (ou volant) de fougue.
Note from asker:
Thank you! Very useful. Confirms the previous suggestions.
Something went wrong...
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