| Páginas sobre el tema: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51] > | New at ProZ.com: Outsourcer "willingness to work again" feedback for translators Autor de la hebra: Enrique Cavalitto
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| I think there's a basic difference in perspective here | Jul 1, 2006 |
Seems like there is a very, very fundamental difference in point of view underlying this discussion, and it might be why both sides feel that the "other side" is not being responsive to their questions.
One camp views ProZ primarily as a community. In a community, naturally, people have to cooperate and compromise. There is a basis for this feeling, as non-paying people are also allowed to particpate on the site.
The other camp views ProZ as a paid service. When you pa... See more Seems like there is a very, very fundamental difference in point of view underlying this discussion, and it might be why both sides feel that the "other side" is not being responsive to their questions.
One camp views ProZ primarily as a community. In a community, naturally, people have to cooperate and compromise. There is a basis for this feeling, as non-paying people are also allowed to particpate on the site.
The other camp views ProZ as a paid service. When you pay for a service, you expect it to conform closely to what you understood you were paying for, and to have control over what you receive. This too has a basis here, since in order to access certain features of the site, one must pay.
Even if you offered an a la carte type of subscription option, where people could check the box for the individual services they wished to use at so much per service (KudoZ, Jobs, Forums, etc. etc.), the "community" camp would not like it, because they would feel that was limiting their opportunity to be a "community".
Obviously I belong to the "paying camp", so to speak. From this point of view, and considering that the paying members subsidize the non-paying ones in effect, I do not like to be compelled to necessarily take part in all the features (in order not to limit the "community") because, after all, I am paying for these services, therefore I expect a high degree of control over what is delivered.
I think that an earlier suggestion that the primarily business features should be considered separately from the primarily community features makes great sense. I would consider community features to be the features that make your day as a freelancer working alone at a desk with an Internet connection less lonely -- things like the forums, powwows.
I would consider features that help you grow your business (are not aimed are "making friends" but at "making money") to be primarily business-oriented. Those would include job listings, WWF, and the Blue Board.
Left alone in the middle are KudoZ, since they are not primarily to grow one's business (unless one's voluntary participation *answering* is considered), nor are they to make friends (unless one is throwing points to pals!)
So...that's my suggestion. For the business side, cater to the "paying camp"; for the "community side", cater to the "community camp". And let KudoZ be the meeting ground! That's about as logical a solution as I can forward on all this. ▲ Collapse
| | | | heikeb 
Miembro 2003
inglés al alemán
+ ...
| Some progress | Jul 1, 2006 |
Although it's been taking a while (and many words), things are starting to fall into place...
I am very happy to see that the out/out option will be available and appreciate all the efforts that are/will be involved to make that possible.
However...
Henry wrote:
Translators who want a WWA system - This is the group of ProZ.com members who either requested or intend to use WWA-type feedback to add impact to their marketing, to justify higher-than-average rates, to (hopefully) reduce the need for taking test translations... (you have heard the reasons by now).
If used appropriately, the WWA can be a useful tool, and I can definitely understand anybody who want to use it.
What about all the possible ways of abuse?
The main concern voiced regarding the feedback system is the possibility of retaliation by agencies that received negative feedback in the BB.
However, my - maybe even bigger - concern is the possiblilty of abuse by obtaining undeserved positive feedback.
The more the importance of the WWA feature as a competitive marketing tool for translators is stressed and implemented into ProZ (maybe some filter option like the LWA filter in BB?), the more likely it will be that some people - particularly those that might have received some negative feedback or are afraid of receiving it - will try everything to improve their WWA rate by soliciting friends, family, colleagues to leave them positive feedback. Everyone can register here and leave feedback: XYZ has done several translations for me and I'm very happy with his/her work.
Since, obviously, the recipient of such feedback would not complain, there is no reason for ProZ to do more than vetting the entry for appropriate wording.
And even if somebody would be suspicious: how can anybody verify that each and all entries are legitimate? How can anybody verify that any entry is legitimate?
What about creating "legitimate" entries by offering free/cheap translations in exchange for positive feedback? What about somebody targeting new translators without experience? "We'll give you a job with lousy pay but great feedback so you have something to show..." What about agencies and translators with negative feedback teaming up to leave each other positive feedback and polish up their image?
As a translator/editor, I have seen it often enough that agencies were absolutely surprised when I told them that translator X had done a lousy job. "Oh, but all the clients were always so happy with XYZ!" - No doubt, they would have left positive feedback for XYZ before that.
As outsourcer, I would never rely on somebody else's evaluation (particularly not in a system that is so open to manipulation and so subjective) of a translator's skills but request a test translation in the required area of specialization.
Henry wrote:
ProZ.com members who outsource and want a WWA system - These are the ProZ.com members and users (don't forget them, even if they tend to be less vocal) who have often requested WWA entries for translators. They make up only about 8% of our workplace population, but they are an important part and the majority of them want this feature.
Well, if negative feedback can be hidden with the click of a button, what's the advantage for the outsourcers? The mere presence or absence of positive feedback doesn't tell them anything concrete. Imaging a BB where the recipients of negative feedback could just decide to disappear from the board completely. What would be the use of that?
IMHO, a WWA for translators only makes sense if any feedback - positive and negative - is there for everybody to see and cannot be hidden (this doesn't imply that I'm in favor of such a system!!). Since due to reasons of privacy, lack of objectivity, etc. etc., this is not possible, I personally can't quite see the big advantage of the system at all.
| | | | | Thanks, Heike! | Jul 1, 2006 |
Heike Behl, Ph.D. wrote: Some progress Although it's been taking a while (and many words), things are starting to fall into place... I am very happy to see that the out/out option will be available and appreciate all the efforts that are/will be involved to make that possible. However... Henry wrote:
Translators who want a WWA system - This is the group of ProZ.com members who either requested or intend to use WWA-type feedback to add impact to their marketing, to justify higher-than-average rates, to (hopefully) reduce the need for taking test translations... (you have heard the reasons by now).
If used appropriately, the WWA can be a useful tool, and I can definitely understand anybody who want to use it. What about all the possible ways of abuse?
They have to be considered and countered. We have designed on a number of elements to prevent abuse, some of which we learned from our Blue Board experiences. We may need to add additional protections... let's talk in more detail on that shortly.
I am glad to see signs that we will be able to begin to focus on the mechanisms. But for now, let's continue on principles and choice...
Thanks for posting!
| | | | | Development at ProZ.com, the community and you (part 6) | Jul 1, 2006 |
Now, I'd like to elaborate on the characteristics of the four groups of WWA "stakeholders"...
- Translators who want to make use of this function generally want a system that will be effective as a marketing tool. To ensure that the WWA system that they desire offers sufficient marketing impact, some are willing to do what Luis did in his university application: they are prepared to accept negative feedback.
To this crowd, offering too much flexibility to opt in and out... See more Now, I'd like to elaborate on the characteristics of the four groups of WWA "stakeholders"...
- Translators who want to make use of this function generally want a system that will be effective as a marketing tool. To ensure that the WWA system that they desire offers sufficient marketing impact, some are willing to do what Luis did in his university application: they are prepared to accept negative feedback.
To this crowd, offering too much flexibility to opt in and out dilutes the effectiveness of the system, and they don't welcome this. Crucially, and perhaps to those outside the camp counterintuitively, they want clients to know that when a WWA record is shown, it is a complete record that would include any negative entries, as well as any positive. (Quoting Kirill's post on the first page of this topic: "I would make it even stricter and allow any outsourcer/agency to make comments on freelancers' quality of work openly, on their own consideration." He later added, "I'm a [freelancer], not an outsourcer in any way. But whenever I see people trying to make ProZ.com good for them, personally, not for everyone, I may become outrageous. (He added a smile emoticon.)") In other words, Kirill speaks for the camp that wants a WWA system with a good deal of integrity. This is a valid argument and position.
..............
- When outsourcers request this type of functionality, what they tend to outline is an open board, in which they can make entries for any service provider. In essence, they want there to be a way to leave "yes" and "no" WWA entries for any site user without requiring permission. Given their needs, this is also a valid position.
Another request from outsourcers goes along these lines: I have outsourced work to hundreds of ProZ.com members over the years. I need a way to keep track of who I would work with again (so I can email them, etc.), and who I should remember not to work with again. When I post a job/send a group mail/etc., I don't want those who I will not work with again to be notified/permitted to quote, etc. They rightly point out that thiis will save them, and the translators in question, time.
There is another segment among outsourcers: those who are very professional, and having received positive entries from translators and felt the benefits, requests a way to return the favor. (Notice the post from Eugene Pik earlier in this thread.) Like conscientious translators, who may make a point of leaving fives after every positive engagement, they would make a practice of doing the same. They value their translator relationships, and would use this tool to enhance those.
There is also an argument from this camp on fairness. Fair is fair, they argue: if another member can leave an entry for me, I should be able to leave an entry for that member.
..............
- Translators in the "wait and see" or "not for me" crowd just do not want to be affected, at least not yet. As long as entries will not be made public concerning them without their permission, they are happy to bne out/in. However, they don't want any hint of a WWA system in their profiles, without their approval. This is a perfectly reasonable position.
..............
- Translators in the out/out crowd do not want others to have the right to leave entries for them. They object to the possibility for making entries on the grounds that it may have an influence on existing client relationships and that furthermore, there are security / libel / legal concerns inherent in the mere existence of such data. This is also a perfectly reasonable position.
..............
I know that some people will now feel inclined to post to say that the above descriptions do not cover them. They are not meant to cover everyone. I am trying to characterize the major opinions of the major groups. There are other people and needs to consider, and we do, but this is a summary.
You can see how in this situation, given the disparate needs and motivations of the various camps, there are going to be issues among the camps. It has repercussions throughout the system, technically and otherwise. I could go into details, but I won't. I hope you take my point, which is...
There is a need here not only to look for ways to offer choice, but also to meet needs in creative ways, to strike balances, and finally, to compromise.
To be continued…. ▲ Collapse
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| my personal conspiracy theory | Jul 1, 2006 |
Henry, why do you post these parts at crucial times in World Cup matches? The last one was during the England vs. Portugal penalty shootout and this is just as Brazil are trying to recover a 1:0 defecit!
Something is amiss...:)
| | | | df49f (X)
Francia
Local time: 08:51
| make Feedback a "paying-member only privilege"... | Jul 1, 2006 |
Terry Thatcher Waltz, Ph.D. wrote:
...From this point of view, and considering that the paying members subsidize the non-paying ones in effect...
So...that's my suggestion. For the business side, cater to the "paying camp"; for the "community side", cater to the "community camp".
ah yes! "cater to the business side"... Since this feedback thing is indeed a "purely business" feature, it should therefore be a privilege restricted to paying members only.
That would be a perfect solution to satisfy us, the "over my dead body" non-paying subsidized (ab)users (though I don't personally cost you much... since all I do on this site is give out free help in kudoz, enter terms in the KOG and in my glossaries for everybody's use... and absolutely NOTHING else...).
As for paying members, it should simply be an "à la carte" kind of option.
And everybody would be happy! Don't really understand why it seems like such a huge problem to do it this way?
To Henry
I'm very pleased to see that the "out/out" option has been decided. You could even deny the feedback privilege to non-paying members like me, that would please me even more!
My reasons (late because I've been away - for information only, as I feel no need to justify myself): it's a question of principle: don't want anyone to send/collect/store personal information on me nor any personal data hanging around in cyberlimbo in anybody's system without my consent. I don't want any professional information on me, my clients or colleagues I work with, to exist anywhere (even hidden) on this site or any other public site (which is why I only use a "username" and not my full name.) All of which is rather theoretical in my case, since none of my clients even know that proz exists (and I plan to keep it that way), so it would be highly unlikely that anyone would ever enter any comment on me.
best regards - dominique
[Edited at 2006-07-01 22:32]
| | | | Uldis Liepkalns
Letonia
Local time: 09:51
Miembro 2003
inglés al letón
+ ...
| Question to all "personal information" protection fans | Jul 1, 2006 |
not that I do not count myself as such. But- what exactly is this "personal information"?
AFAIK, ProZ is not interested in our business details, business contacts, banking, family, health and like information, nor does or intends it to acquire or store such (even entering your Pay Pal link in your profile just leads person clicking the link to the Pay pal page, it doesn't reveal your banking info to ProZ).
And surely, personal information is protected in most countries... See more not that I do not count myself as such. But- what exactly is this "personal information"?
AFAIK, ProZ is not interested in our business details, business contacts, banking, family, health and like information, nor does or intends it to acquire or store such (even entering your Pay Pal link in your profile just leads person clicking the link to the Pay pal page, it doesn't reveal your banking info to ProZ).
And surely, personal information is protected in most countries in the world, however, I'm not sure any legislation considers info submitted to any media on me by my neighbour on the left "I don't want to see this guy ever again" and by my neighbour on the right "it is a real privilege to know this guy" as a "personal information", entitled to be protected by Law...
Uldis ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I am amazed that noone has brought this up yet | Jul 1, 2006 |
The new system this long thread is discussing already existed before this new one was invented. I can display all of the BB comments I've left to others right in my profile, and the answers mto them display as well. The only reason why I don't display it anymore is that I can't pick and choose which individual entries I want to display.
Some of my clients are happy that I display these entries in my profile, some are not. As I can't please each one of them, I decided to hide my BB c... See more The new system this long thread is discussing already existed before this new one was invented. I can display all of the BB comments I've left to others right in my profile, and the answers mto them display as well. The only reason why I don't display it anymore is that I can't pick and choose which individual entries I want to display.
Some of my clients are happy that I display these entries in my profile, some are not. As I can't please each one of them, I decided to hide my BB comments altogether, for the only reason that I have only two choices: display all - or none.
If this system is already in place, why don't we simply extend it to colleagues instead of implementing one much more complicated - and controversial? That would be just perfect.
Also, for the private record-keeping system, why not make a little piece of software, a little like the KudoZ interface, that would interact with the site but would not leave any traces on it? In other words, the information would not be on the site but rather on the outsourcer's computer. I am not against the original idea, but I AM against having such files up on public sites, even if that particular site does all they can to keep the information confidential. Any good pirate/cracker/fill in the blank can access information they are not meant to.
If ProZ wants to offer this possibility, fine by me, but I don't want that info up on the site. If ProZ wants to make a piece of software, they can also ask for a small fee for downloading it - I am sure $10 each would compensate for the effort and that many outsourcers would be willing to shell it out.
So, what do you all think?
Reply to Uldis: an outsourcer could enter things that are useful for them to know about us but that we don't want to display publicly. For example, I could be a Jew and do a translation for an outsourcer that has to do with "jewdom", yet prefer not to display that I am a Jew. (this is just an example) As I've said earlier, even if this information is supposed to stay private, there will always be people - even specifically translators - who will be able to access it. Also, it's not going to be private for no reason...
[Edited at 2006-07-01 23:26] ▲ Collapse
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Uldis Liepkalns
Letonia
Local time: 09:51
Miembro 2003
inglés al letón
+ ...
maybe I'm not so bright, but I am a Latvian and have been proud about it since I remember myself. I also have honour to know many Jews, Americans, whatever, and they all are proud they are what they are. Am I missing something?
Uldis
[Added] There is "native language" requirement option when posting a job, if the outsourcer wants his piece to Icelandic done by a Latvian, he always can specify it. (from time to time such happens in practice, by the way ... See more maybe I'm not so bright, but I am a Latvian and have been proud about it since I remember myself. I also have honour to know many Jews, Americans, whatever, and they all are proud they are what they are. Am I missing something?
Uldis
[Added] There is "native language" requirement option when posting a job, if the outsourcer wants his piece to Icelandic done by a Latvian, he always can specify it. (from time to time such happens in practice, by the way ) But I still don't see any leakage of "private information" there,my native language is not "classified information" at all.
U.
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
Reply to Uldis: an outsourcer could enter things that are useful for them to know about us but that we don't want to display publicly. For example, I could be a Jew and do a translation for an outsourcer that has to do with "jewdom", yet prefer not to display that I am a Jew. (this is just an example) As I've said earlier, even if this information is supposed to stay private, there will always be people - even specifically translators - who will be able to access it. Also, it's not going to be private for no reason...
[Edited at 2006-07-02 00:30] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Bentext
Alemania
Local time: 08:51
Miembro 2003
inglés al alemán
+ ...
| Off-topic : WRMFPA Score | Jul 2, 2006 |
That may be off-topic but : What about an opt-out option for reading the forum posts of specific members on the basis of a WRMFPA score (Willingness of reading a member's forum postings again) ?
Stéphane
[Edited at 2006-07-02 00:01]
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Bentext wrote: That may be off-topic but : What about an opt-out option for reading the forum posts of specific members on the basis of a WRMFPA score (Willingness of reading a member's forum postings again) ? Stéphane [Edited at 2006-07-02 00:01]
Had been meaning to suggest it all the way through but wasn't too keen on adding more oil to the fire. +1
| | | | | To Uldis on "personal information" | Jul 2, 2006 |
For Uldis --
"Personal information" in many opinions includes not only data like names, addresses, tax ID numbers or Social Security number, date of birth, etc. etc., but also *subjective* opinions about a person.
I Googled a few related keywords briefly, and the briefest explanation that caught my eye was from a University in Canada:
What is personal information?
Personal information is factual or subjective information about an identifiable individual. It includes, but is not limited to, such basic details as name, address, gender, age and marital status, as well as health information, education and employment history, and financial data. It also includes opinions about an individual (e.g. letters of reference). For a full definition of this term, see [ Freedom of Information and Privacy Act, Section 2 - Definitions].]
You can see that opinions about an individual's professional performance are definitely included in this definition. And this is the type of personal information that the "out-out" members prefer not to have shown OR collected by ProZ.
Hope this clears up what (at least some) people mean.
[Edited at 2006-07-02 00:58]
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| There are critical differences, Viktoria | Jul 2, 2006 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
The new system this long thread is discussing already existed before this new one was invented. I can display all of the BB comments I've left to others right in my profile, and the answers mto them display as well.
One of the differences is that in that system, you have to make an entry first, and what you can show is only replies. In the WWA system we are discussing, the outsourcer can take the initiative, so from a marketing standpoint, it will be much stronger.
Also, for the private record-keeping system, why not make a little piece of software, a little like the KudoZ interface, that would interact with the site but would not leave any traces on it?
An interesting idea. I don't think it would be the best route for us to take for various reasons, but thank you anyway.
... an outsourcer could enter things that are useful for them to know about us but that we don't want to display publicly. For example, I could be a Jew and do a translation for an outsourcer that has to do with "jewdom", yet prefer not to display that I am a Jew.
We would not permit entries with this sort of information. This is about willingness to work again, only.
Thanks for posting!
| | | | Gina W
Estados Unidos
Local time: 02:51
Miembro 2003
francés al inglés
| Can the translator then reply to the outsourcer's "feedback"? | Jul 2, 2006 |
Henry wrote:
In the WWA system we are discussing, the outsourcer can take the initiative, so from a marketing standpoint, it will be much stronger.
I don't see it as "initiative". I see it as unnecessary and don't like this feature at all. It doesn't seem to do much for translators, it seems to totally favor the "outsourcers".
In any case, can a translator respond to an outsourcer's feeback? Because if not, then that would be totally unfair, since on the Blue Board, if a translator rates an outsourcer, the outsourcer can ALWAYS comment back - whether or not the comment back is true. Now it seems that the outsourcers have even more ways of commenting, and they can really say anything they want. I always figured that this was a translator website, but this change is making me think that it's quickly becoming a website for the outsourcers instead.
| | | | | Yes, it is possible to reply to WWA entries | Jul 2, 2006 |
gad wrote:
I don't see it as "initiative". I see it as unnecessary and don't like this feature at all. It doesn't seem to do much for translators, it seems to totally favor the "outsourcers".
We do not view it as an us-vs-them scenario. Outsourcers are part of our community.
In any case, can a translator respond to an outsourcer's feeback?
Yes. And in the case of "no" entries, there will be an opportunity to respond before the entry goes public.
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