Feb 20, 2023 12:13
1 yr ago
31 viewers *
French term
inopposabilité de la donation
French to English
Law/Patents
Law (general)
Settlement of an estate.
The legatees have various disagreements.
"La représentation en justice des indivisaires de l’indivision née du décès de AAA n’est ni nécessaire ni opportune au regard de la représentation déjà existante de chacun d’eux dans les procédures qui l’intéresse et des positions antagonistes et inconciliables qu’ils soutiennent de nature à faire échec et opposer une contestation à toute action du mandataire dans ce domaine.
Il s’agit :
...
-de l’appel du jugement du 5 juin 2020 du tribunal judiciaire de Ville-Machin statuant sur l’inopposabilité de la donation faite par Madame BBB de 1800 parts de la société CCC à son fils DDD"
I assume this means a claim that the gift is invalid (i.e. it is "not binding"), so "adjudicating on the invalidity".
But I also have a slight doubt that, instead, the son, DDD, might have brought this motion of inopposabilité, claiming that this gift is "not objectable", i.e. no objection can be be raised against it.
No other clues which might provide enlightenment.
The legatees have various disagreements.
"La représentation en justice des indivisaires de l’indivision née du décès de AAA n’est ni nécessaire ni opportune au regard de la représentation déjà existante de chacun d’eux dans les procédures qui l’intéresse et des positions antagonistes et inconciliables qu’ils soutiennent de nature à faire échec et opposer une contestation à toute action du mandataire dans ce domaine.
Il s’agit :
...
-de l’appel du jugement du 5 juin 2020 du tribunal judiciaire de Ville-Machin statuant sur l’inopposabilité de la donation faite par Madame BBB de 1800 parts de la société CCC à son fils DDD"
I assume this means a claim that the gift is invalid (i.e. it is "not binding"), so "adjudicating on the invalidity".
But I also have a slight doubt that, instead, the son, DDD, might have brought this motion of inopposabilité, claiming that this gift is "not objectable", i.e. no objection can be be raised against it.
No other clues which might provide enlightenment.
Proposed translations
(English)
Proposed translations
+2
2 hrs
AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
Specializes in field
United Kingdom
Sensible solutions
Native in: English (Variant: Wessexois) 
Works in: French to English, English, English to French
Related KudoZ points
:
1355
Selected
(ruling on) whether or not the gift is binding
French likes to use this "tight" form of construction, while in English we often don't
How about this solution?
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Note added at 2 hrs (2023-02-20 15:10:01 GMT)
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or you could say "(ruling on) whether the gift of (...) made by Mrs.BBB is non-binding"
How about this solution?
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Note added at 2 hrs (2023-02-20 15:10:01 GMT)
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or you could say "(ruling on) whether the gift of (...) made by Mrs.BBB is non-binding"
Note from asker:
| Yes, on further examination, I conclude that "inopposable" doesn't seem *ever* to mean "you can't object to it" (in law, at least, and as far as I can tell). So it seems I was mistaken about such a possible ambiguity. But the other ambiguity concerns which party brought the action, and your idea covers both possibilities. |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Anastasia Kalantzi
51 mins
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thanks
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| agree |
Jennifer Levey
: A good solution which retains the essence of the ST. There's nothing 'ambiguous' in the ST - it's just that it omits details that are not directly relevant to the current purpose.
1 hr
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Thanks! I looked for ambiguity but couldn't find it either
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| agree |
Andrew Bramhall
2 days 5 hrs
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thanks
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| disagree |
Adrian MM.
: > again, binding on whom: the donor, donee, a creditor, a trustee-in-bankruptcy, the court, a third party - the list is endless.
9 days
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks"
-1
2 hrs
Andres Larsen
Venezuela
Venezuela
Native in English
Venezuela
freelance translator
Native in: English 
Works in: Spanish to English, English to Spanish, German to English, and 3 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
71
non-opposability of the donation (Paulian action)
Opposability and Non-Opposability in International Law
https://academic.oup.com › bybil › doi › bybil › brab006
Oct 14, 2021 - Opposability (like its opposite: non-opposability) is concerned with whether the act in question may be opposed to the state at issue; the basis for that opposability (or non-opposability) will be whether or not the state has given its recognition, tacitly or explicitly, of the act concerned. Article.
From revocation to non-opposability: modern developments of ...
https://www.cambridge.org › core › books › from-revocat...
30 July 2009 -
9 - From revocation to non-opposability: modern developments of the Paulian action. Published online by Cambridge University Press:
Opposability and non - opposability - Studocu
https://www.studocu.com › ... › Family law
OPPOSABILITY AND NON-OPPOSABILITY IN INTERNATIONAL LAW. By EI R I K BJ O R G E. *. ABSTRACT. In a given legal situation relating to one or more states, ...
The Concept of Opposability in International Law
http://classic.austlii.edu.au › AUYrBkIntLaw › 2.pdf
PDF
A standard instance of non-opposability[8J is that of the grant of nationality by Liechtenstein to one, Nottebohm, in 1939, which the International Court of ...
4 pages
The Concept of Opposability in International Law - Brill
https://brill.com › previewpdf › journals › auso › article-p1
A standard instance of non-opposability I 8] is that of the grant of nationality by Liechtenstein to one, Nottebohm, in 1939, which the International Court of ...
Unilateral Measures and the Concept of Opposability in ...
https://legal.un.org › avl › pdf › Murase_outline2
PDF
S Murase · — Concept of Opposability. A Normative Framework. Legal opposable non-opposable illegal. 2. The Relevant ICJ Cases: Fisheries case of 1951 (United Kingdom v.
2 pages
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Note added at 2 hrs (2023-02-20 14:42:38 GMT)
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COVID-19: Status of Proceedings Before French Courts ...
https://www.shearman.com › perspectives › 2020/03
Mar 26, 2020 — At the same time, the French court system has enacted ... sanction, void, foreclosure, lapse of a statute of limitations, non-opposability, ...
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Note added at 2 hrs (2023-02-20 14:47:19 GMT)
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unenforceability / invalidity of the donation:
Article 453 of the Treaty of Versailles "n'est opposable a la ...
https://www.jstor.org › stable
L Gross · 1958 — meaning in all cases. There is no English equivalent to "opposable" and "opposabilite" and these terms have been used in their French sense.,.
https://academic.oup.com › bybil › doi › bybil › brab006
Oct 14, 2021 - Opposability (like its opposite: non-opposability) is concerned with whether the act in question may be opposed to the state at issue; the basis for that opposability (or non-opposability) will be whether or not the state has given its recognition, tacitly or explicitly, of the act concerned. Article.
From revocation to non-opposability: modern developments of ...
https://www.cambridge.org › core › books › from-revocat...
30 July 2009 -
9 - From revocation to non-opposability: modern developments of the Paulian action. Published online by Cambridge University Press:
Opposability and non - opposability - Studocu
https://www.studocu.com › ... › Family law
OPPOSABILITY AND NON-OPPOSABILITY IN INTERNATIONAL LAW. By EI R I K BJ O R G E. *. ABSTRACT. In a given legal situation relating to one or more states, ...
The Concept of Opposability in International Law
http://classic.austlii.edu.au › AUYrBkIntLaw › 2.pdf
A standard instance of non-opposability[8J is that of the grant of nationality by Liechtenstein to one, Nottebohm, in 1939, which the International Court of ...
4 pages
The Concept of Opposability in International Law - Brill
https://brill.com › previewpdf › journals › auso › article-p1
A standard instance of non-opposability I 8] is that of the grant of nationality by Liechtenstein to one, Nottebohm, in 1939, which the International Court of ...
Unilateral Measures and the Concept of Opposability in ...
https://legal.un.org › avl › pdf › Murase_outline2
S Murase · — Concept of Opposability. A Normative Framework. Legal opposable non-opposable illegal. 2. The Relevant ICJ Cases: Fisheries case of 1951 (United Kingdom v.
2 pages
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2023-02-20 14:42:38 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
COVID-19: Status of Proceedings Before French Courts ...
https://www.shearman.com › perspectives › 2020/03
Mar 26, 2020 — At the same time, the French court system has enacted ... sanction, void, foreclosure, lapse of a statute of limitations, non-opposability, ...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2023-02-20 14:47:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
unenforceability / invalidity of the donation:
Article 453 of the Treaty of Versailles "n'est opposable a la ...
https://www.jstor.org › stable
L Gross · 1958 — meaning in all cases. There is no English equivalent to "opposable" and "opposabilite" and these terms have been used in their French sense.,.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
AllegroTrans
: There are English equivalents and your links don't give access to the actual articles; "opposability" is a false friend and is not used in English (GB) legal speak
20 mins
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| disagree |
Daryo
: about "Paulian action" it's an unnecessary addition + a "Paulian action" is not always about contesting gifts.
15 hrs
|
12 hrs
inopposabilité / 'inopposability' of the gift (plus explanation)
Opposabilité is not about opposition, but more about transposition. For example, the Las Vegas wedding of two French nationals (A and B) has (for various reasons) been considered to be inopposable against French law (and persons represented by it, in this case a spouse filing for divorce) (non-transposable to France, to have no effect with respect to marriage under French law). This decision was made when, 'spouse' A, having subsequently married (someone else, whom we shall call spouse X) in France, had to face a divorce claim when spouse X filed for divorce (from spouse A) on the grounds that spouse A was bigamous, since no end had been put to the Las Vegas marriage. While the Las Vegas wedding was valid in the US, under French law it was not valid in France and the two partners had been free to marry under the conditions of French marriage law. If they were to divorce, the 'phoney' wedding in Las Vegas could not be invoked as cause, being inopposable against French law (not transposable to France).
In the case at hand, inopposabilité means that—assuming the gift is judged to be inopposable—, it (the gift) must not produire d’effet à l’égard de the other heirs. IOW, it is to be discounted and compensatory measures will be taken to ensure fair distribution of the inheritance (the person having received the gift will see their share of the inheritance reduced by the value of the gift at the time it was given discounted to its value in present-day money).
However, from the excerpt given, we know only that the court examined the opposabilité / inopposabilité of the gift, its right (or not) to have an effect on the amount of other heirs' share in the inheritance. We don't know which way the decision went, so the translation cannot specify.
I would suggest putting either inopposabilité or 'inopposability' (in quote marks) and possibly giving an element of explanation such as:
- (the effect of the gift with respect to the settlement of the inheritance)
- (the manner in which the gift is to be taken into account in the settlement of the inheritance).
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Note added at 12 hrs (2023-02-21 00:33:39 GMT)
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You can read about the Las Vegas wedding (and why the French courts decided to declare its inopposabilité rather than annul it) here:
https://www.efl.fr/actualite/faute-consentement-mariage-unio...
In the case at hand, inopposabilité means that—assuming the gift is judged to be inopposable—, it (the gift) must not produire d’effet à l’égard de the other heirs. IOW, it is to be discounted and compensatory measures will be taken to ensure fair distribution of the inheritance (the person having received the gift will see their share of the inheritance reduced by the value of the gift at the time it was given discounted to its value in present-day money).
However, from the excerpt given, we know only that the court examined the opposabilité / inopposabilité of the gift, its right (or not) to have an effect on the amount of other heirs' share in the inheritance. We don't know which way the decision went, so the translation cannot specify.
I would suggest putting either inopposabilité or 'inopposability' (in quote marks) and possibly giving an element of explanation such as:
- (the effect of the gift with respect to the settlement of the inheritance)
- (the manner in which the gift is to be taken into account in the settlement of the inheritance).
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Note added at 12 hrs (2023-02-21 00:33:39 GMT)
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You can read about the Las Vegas wedding (and why the French courts decided to declare its inopposabilité rather than annul it) here:
https://www.efl.fr/actualite/faute-consentement-mariage-unio...
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
AllegroTrans
: There are proper English legal equivalents and it isn't necessary to use Translationese
1 day 23 hrs
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| neutral |
Daryo
: Obvious better explanation: "What happens in Las Vegas, stays in Las Vegas" that's why French state won't recognise this marriage// BTW what's Las Vegas doing here?
2 days 1 hr
|
13 hrs
Adrian MM.
Austria
Austria
Native in English
Specializes in field
Austria
Retd.T&I, Barrister & Austro-Advokat
Native in: English (Variants: Scottish, British)
Works in: Spanish to English, English to Spanish, French to English, and 5 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
359
voidability (ineffectiveness or unenforceability) of the gift
> as a matter of 'contractual or equitable estoppel'.
inopposabilité : 'se dit d'un acte juridique (legal dealing) dont la validité n'est pas affecté, mais dont les tiers peuvent *écarter les effets*. lexique de termes juridiques, Dalloz.
Cut to Bridge > inopposable - unenforceable or void (against a trustee in bankruptcy). Query: not binding on the latter.
Incidentally, I can recall a run-in 30 years ago with a translation agency in the South of England where the French-graduate boss argued that it wasn't ambiguous, but meant the opposite, namely effectiveness against..., but Bridge again says otherwise: opposable à : valid, effective against or binding on third parties.
Maybe other learnèd colleagues, including Solicitors, Probate Managers and Notaries Public, can recall drafting a London / Manchester High Court originating or construction (interptetation) summons asking the court whether the gift is:
1. conditional
2. unconditional
3. in the nature of a trust
4. void against a trustee in bankruptcy, receiver or liquidator as made within the last year or two to avoid or defraud creditors.
PS I can't recall the question being asked of whether a gift had been binding. If so, on whom...
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Note added at 13 hrs (2023-02-21 01:37:55 GMT)
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construction (interpretation vs. brick-laying) summons....
inopposabilité : 'se dit d'un acte juridique (legal dealing) dont la validité n'est pas affecté, mais dont les tiers peuvent *écarter les effets*. lexique de termes juridiques, Dalloz.
Cut to Bridge > inopposable - unenforceable or void (against a trustee in bankruptcy). Query: not binding on the latter.
Incidentally, I can recall a run-in 30 years ago with a translation agency in the South of England where the French-graduate boss argued that it wasn't ambiguous, but meant the opposite, namely effectiveness against..., but Bridge again says otherwise: opposable à : valid, effective against or binding on third parties.
Maybe other learnèd colleagues, including Solicitors, Probate Managers and Notaries Public, can recall drafting a London / Manchester High Court originating or construction (interptetation) summons asking the court whether the gift is:
1. conditional
2. unconditional
3. in the nature of a trust
4. void against a trustee in bankruptcy, receiver or liquidator as made within the last year or two to avoid or defraud creditors.
PS I can't recall the question being asked of whether a gift had been binding. If so, on whom...
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Note added at 13 hrs (2023-02-21 01:37:55 GMT)
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construction (interpretation vs. brick-laying) summons....
Reference:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-contracts/1203702-inopposabilité.html
http://www.justanswer.co.uk/law/7sy6u-does-constructive-summons-mean.html
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Daryo
: Agree that in this particular case, the only way to "not affect third parties" is to void / annul the gift. OTOH I couldn't find any occurrence of "voidability" being used in any text.
6 hrs
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'In general, a gift that your spouse makes without your consent is considered a "voidable" (not "void") gift." https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=voidabili... and you ought to 'remember' from EN insolvency law practice.
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| neutral |
AllegroTrans
: What earthly relevance has your second webref. to this question?
12 hrs
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To 'remind' you of questions 1-4 that would have been asked in a construction summons e.g. whether the gift had been void, rather than binding or non-binding to sticking plaster.
|
19 hrs
whether the gift can be declared void
[statuant] sur l’inopposabilité de la donation faite par Madame BBB de 1800 parts de la société CCC à son fils DDD
=
[deciding on] whether the gift ..... can be declared void or not
The gift is perfectly valid and binding until / unless it gets annulled / declared void by an interested third party.
The dispute is about cancelling / invalidating / voiding this gift.
Yes - this only the effect of "l'inopposabilité", not a direct translation, but so are all other answers.
=
[deciding on] whether the gift ..... can be declared void or not
The gift is perfectly valid and binding until / unless it gets annulled / declared void by an interested third party.
The dispute is about cancelling / invalidating / voiding this gift.
Yes - this only the effect of "l'inopposabilité", not a direct translation, but so are all other answers.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Adrian MM.
: naughty, naughty ! you have basically reworded my answer https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=voidabili...
8 days
|
Reference comments
2 hrs
philgoddard
United States
United States
Native in English
Specializes in field
United States
Six languages into flawless English
Native in: English
Works in: German to English, French to English, Spanish to English, and 4 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
286
Reference:
Not binding
We've had this several times before.
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-contracts/31...
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-contracts/31...
Note from asker:
| Yes, I know you never believe it, but like most people I do search on the archives before posting a question and indeed saw this. If you had read the question you'd have understood that my question was specifically about a perceived ambiguity. As it turns out I was misguided: "inopposabilité", it appears, can never mean "having the quality of being beyond the ability to someone to raise an objection to it", and therefore must always mean "non-binding". At least in law. |
18 hrs
Reference:
l'inopposabilité de la donation **au créancier**
L'insolvabilité, au moins apparente, du débiteur, doit exister à la date de la donation.
L’article 1167 ancien du code civil, devenu l’article 1341-2 nouveau, sanctionnait par l’inopposabilité au créancier les actes par lesquels le débiteur avait voulu s’appauvrir afin s’échapper aux poursuites du créancier. Le caractère gratuit de la donation conduisant de manière certaine à l’appauvrissement du débiteur, il n’est pas exigé dans ce cas qu’il soit établi que le cocontractant du débiteur ait eu connaissance de la fraude.
L’inopposabilité de la donation suppose donc remplies les autres conditions, à savoir de la part du créancier une créance certaine, liquide, antérieure à la donation, et la preuve de l’insolvabilité du débiteur. Cette dernière condition est source de difficultés car il est essentiel de savoir à quelle date elle s’apprécie.
Remarque : la donation ne peut donc être un moyen de mettre son patrimoine « à l’abri », du moins si elle intervient à un moment où la situation financière du donateur est par trop obérée.
Cass. 1re civ., 24 mars 2021, n° 19-19.051, n° 257 D – Site EditionsLégislatives 249/04/2021
https://horizon63.cerfrance.fr/breves/la-donation-peut-etre-...
donc
L’inopposabilité de la donation
= le donateur ne peut s'opposer à ce que ses créanciers demandent l'annulation de la donation.
autrement dit
= le donateur (du bien) ne peut s'opposer à la saisie du bien sous prétexte qu'il ne lui appartient plus
L’article 1167 ancien du code civil, devenu l’article 1341-2 nouveau, sanctionnait par l’inopposabilité au créancier les actes par lesquels le débiteur avait voulu s’appauvrir afin s’échapper aux poursuites du créancier. Le caractère gratuit de la donation conduisant de manière certaine à l’appauvrissement du débiteur, il n’est pas exigé dans ce cas qu’il soit établi que le cocontractant du débiteur ait eu connaissance de la fraude.
L’inopposabilité de la donation suppose donc remplies les autres conditions, à savoir de la part du créancier une créance certaine, liquide, antérieure à la donation, et la preuve de l’insolvabilité du débiteur. Cette dernière condition est source de difficultés car il est essentiel de savoir à quelle date elle s’apprécie.
Remarque : la donation ne peut donc être un moyen de mettre son patrimoine « à l’abri », du moins si elle intervient à un moment où la situation financière du donateur est par trop obérée.
Cass. 1re civ., 24 mars 2021, n° 19-19.051, n° 257 D – Site EditionsLégislatives 249/04/2021
https://horizon63.cerfrance.fr/breves/la-donation-peut-etre-...
donc
L’inopposabilité de la donation
= le donateur ne peut s'opposer à ce que ses créanciers demandent l'annulation de la donation.
autrement dit
= le donateur (du bien) ne peut s'opposer à la saisie du bien sous prétexte qu'il ne lui appartient plus
Discussion
Other heirs want this donation annulled and these 1800 shares put in the successoral mass.
"l’inopposabilité" is about DDD not being able / not having the right to "oppose" to this demand.
The crux of this is that oppose/opposition etc. are false friends in the legal context
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/156...
http://www.qil-qdi.org/a-bilateral-treaty-developing-legal-e...
ERGA OMNES https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erga_omnes
The point of asking the question here is to ask my learned colleagues whether they believe it *is indeed* somewhat ambiguous (if not, my client might be inclined to think I'm an idiot when I talk about ambiguity).
The thing is, normally there wouldn't be any ambiguity with inopposabilité, and in rare cases where there might be some, at the very least the context would usually resolve it. But I can't rule out someone coming along and saying that they are absolutely convinced (giving *ample justification*) what the setup is here, and demonstrating that fear of ambiguity is laughable, since there can only be one reading.