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caution solidaire et indivisible

English translation: joint and several guarantee

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:caution solidaire et indivisible
English translation:joint and several guarantee
Entered by: AllegroTrans

13:08 Jul 24, 2007
French to English translations [PRO]
Bus/Financial - Finance (general) / Loan agreement for real estate
French term or phrase: caution solidaire et indivisible
Can you translate this as 'joint and several agreement'?
This is the guarantee for the loan
'caution solidaire et indivisible de la Societe yyy a concurrence de ...'
mportal
Local time: 20:02
joint and several
Explanation:
This is the English term which means (a) each party is fully - 100% - liable for payment (b) the creditor can pursue any of the parties or all of them, entirely of his own choice
I have never seen "joint and indivisible" used in English and I think it is franglais
This ref. gives a definition of the 3 types of liability:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_and_several

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Note added at 10 hrs (2007-07-24 23:29:48 GMT)
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"several" is obviously causing some of you bother. It should not be construed with its dictionary meaning at all. Used with "joint" (i.e joint and several) it is a legal term, which means effectively that a party's liability is "indivisible" i.e. that all the debtors, whether principal borrowers or guarantors, are 100% liable to the creditor. The expression in itself says nothing about liabilities as between the debtors. It says nothing about "shares" (there aren't any).
Just look up the definition in any law dictionary...
Selected response from:

AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:02
Grading comment
Thank you AllegroTrans. This is one of those questions where it is difficult to explain why we say it in this way in English, but we do, and your explanation as to why is better than I could do! I thought this was what was meant, and now I am sure.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +1joint and several
AllegroTrans
3joint guarantee
Paula McMullan
4 -1joint and individual guarantee
Tony John
3 -1joint and indivisible
Barbara Schiefer


  

Answers


7 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): -1
joint and indivisible


Explanation:
I think not. In fact, "joint and several" would, in my understanding, be just the opposite, i.e. "divisible" as opposed to "indivisible". Thus I would suggest "joint and indivisible".

Barbara Schiefer
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:02
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Richard Benham: "Joint and several" is the usual English translation; it does not imply divisibility, but quite the opposite: i.e., any one of the guarantors can be pursued for the whole amount.
4 hrs
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5 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
joint guarantee


Explanation:
No, joint and several in the opposite of each other.

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Note added at 6 mins (2007-07-24 13:15:33 GMT)
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Joint liability is that each party is liable for the whole obligation and several liability is that each is liable only for its contribution. The reason you see both together is to ensure that you can sue under both heads.

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Note added at 8 mins (2007-07-24 13:17:21 GMT)
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Have a look at this entry

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/2047133

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Note added at 38 mins (2007-07-24 13:47:25 GMT)
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Following Allegrotrans' post, I am curious to know the set-up here.

I am always reluctant to translate a French legal term with an English one. Have a look at this link which talks more about what "solidarite" means. Interestingly, all the explanations I can find are Belgian.

http://www.notaire.be/info/acheter/846_emprunt_garanties_cau...

My understanding is that the guarantor pays if the underlying debtor doesn't pay at all, same as under English law, and that it also pays any outstanding amounts that the debtor hasn't paid.

To my mind this is not the same as "joint and several" liability. It is more like a guarantee and indemnity.

Paula McMullan
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:02
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 28

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  AllegroTrans: if joint and several are opposites, why is "joint & several" a standard term??? Note re your reply: there is NO "share" in j&s liability : each party is 100% liable
1 hr
  -> So that both scenarios are caught - you have the option to sue one party for everything AND to sue each party for their share.
neutral  Richard Benham: "Joint and several" are hardly opposites, and there is no such thing as a "share" of a joint and several liability: any party can be pursued for the whole amount.//1.irrelevant 2. it's jointly and severally liable with the party it's guaranteeing!
4 hrs
  -> Take a look at a syndicated loan agreement for example. Lenders are severally liable for their respective commitments not the whole amount lent. I'd also be interested to know how one company "Societe yyy" can give a several guarantee.
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -1
joint and individual guarantee


Explanation:
It speaks about,"The guarantee of the company both individual and severally......".


Tony John
Local time: 00:32
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in TamilTamil, Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  cmwilliams (X): no, it's a joint and several guarantee
25 mins
disagree  Richard Benham: More nonsense.
2 hrs
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25 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
joint and several


Explanation:
This is the English term which means (a) each party is fully - 100% - liable for payment (b) the creditor can pursue any of the parties or all of them, entirely of his own choice
I have never seen "joint and indivisible" used in English and I think it is franglais
This ref. gives a definition of the 3 types of liability:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_and_several

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 hrs (2007-07-24 23:29:48 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"several" is obviously causing some of you bother. It should not be construed with its dictionary meaning at all. Used with "joint" (i.e joint and several) it is a legal term, which means effectively that a party's liability is "indivisible" i.e. that all the debtors, whether principal borrowers or guarantors, are 100% liable to the creditor. The expression in itself says nothing about liabilities as between the debtors. It says nothing about "shares" (there aren't any).
Just look up the definition in any law dictionary...

AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:02
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 267
Grading comment
Thank you AllegroTrans. This is one of those questions where it is difficult to explain why we say it in this way in English, but we do, and your explanation as to why is better than I could do! I thought this was what was meant, and now I am sure.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  cmwilliams (X): absolutely. http://www.clickdocs.co.uk/glossary/joint-and-several-liabil... and several guarantee
13 mins
  -> thanks!
neutral  BusterK: but it implies that guarantors may pursue each other for the part which is not theirs, which is not in the original...
15 mins
  -> the only implication is that the creditor may pursue any party ; j& s liability implies nothing as between guarantors
neutral  Paula McMullan: See comments in my response. CMWilliams link talks about liability between two parties vis-a-vis a creditor, not one guarantor
16 mins
  -> liabiility between debtor parties is irrelevant here
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