Glossary entry (derived from question below)
Spanish term or phrase:
sacando el chate
English translation:
removing / taking away the xate palms
Added to glossary by
Charles Davis
Sep 28, 2013 01:45
10 yrs ago
1 viewer *
Spanish term
Canada
English/Spanish Translation/Localization
Native in: Spanish
Works in: Spanish to English, English to Spanish
sacando el chate
Spanish to English
Social Sciences
Social Science, Sociology, Ethics, etc.
Hi,
This is about looting of archeological sites, and there is a word I have not been able to understand or to find on the internet, or find anyone who understands what it means in Spanish: CHATE. The speaker is a campesino from Guatemala and he says the following about people who are outsiders, who are doing bad things in the lands owned by a group of campesinos:
.. excavando piezas arqueológicas, sacando el chate, sacando la madera, destruyendo la montaña ...
Any idea about the meaning of "sacando el chate"?
Thank you, Estela
This is about looting of archeological sites, and there is a word I have not been able to understand or to find on the internet, or find anyone who understands what it means in Spanish: CHATE. The speaker is a campesino from Guatemala and he says the following about people who are outsiders, who are doing bad things in the lands owned by a group of campesinos:
.. excavando piezas arqueológicas, sacando el chate, sacando la madera, destruyendo la montaña ...
Any idea about the meaning of "sacando el chate"?
Thank you, Estela
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 | removing / extracting the xate palms |
Charles Davis
|
| 4 | remove the vegetation |
Emiliano Pantoja
|
Change log
Sep 28, 2013 02:34: Estela Quintero-Weldon changed "Field (specific)" from "Archaeology" to "Social Science, Sociology, Ethics, etc."
Oct 1, 2013 06:02: Charles Davis Created KOG entry
Proposed translations
7 hrs
Selected
removing / extracting the xate palms
I think this is more likely to be what they're referring to. It's true that Ageratina ligustrina is grown in Guatemala as a medicinal plant, as the Wikipedia page explains:
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ageratina_ligustrina#Propiedade...
But the link to the name "chate" is tenuous; I can't find any confirmation of Emiliano's first source (which won't open for me), and "chate" is not among the common names listed for in Wikipedia Ageratina ligustrina ("baqcé, barretillo, chicajol, hoja liza, sal de venado") or elsewhere.
Besides, there seems no good reason why outsiders should be extracting it: possibly for pharmaceutical purposes, but I can't find any evidence that this is actually done, at least not on any significant scale.
But "xate", which is of course pronounced "chate", is definitely a Guatemalan plant that is extracted and exported. It is the name of several palms of the genus Chamaedorea, which are highly valued as ornamental plants. So outsiders extract them, like the timber.
Here's an FAO page on it:
"El xate es el nombre común de tres especies de palma de porte pequeño (Chamadorea elegans, xate hembra; Chamadorea oblongata, xate macho y Chamadorea erumpens, cambray) que crecen en condiciones de sombra bajo el bosque latifoliado. Sus hojas son recolectadas y exportadas a Estados Unidos, Holanda y Alemania, donde se utilizan en la industria ornamental para la confección de arreglos florales.
[...] La recolección de xate en el Petén es una actividad que genera empleo directo a más de 6.000 personas, y 500 más en el canal de comercialización.La totalidad del xate recolectado en Guatemala se destina a la exportación."
http://www.fao.org/docrep/007/ae159s/ae159s06.htm
And there's a lot more detail in this thesis, which identifies xate primarily as Chamadorea elegans, commonly known in English as the parlor palm. See especially pp. 4-5 and p. 11 on extraction of xate for export, which dates back to the 1890s.
http://biblioteca.usac.edu.gt/tesis/06/06_2559.pdf
The spelling "chate" is also found for Chamaedorea palms, particularly C. elegans:
http://books.google.es/books?id=STrAt8uYb-QC&pg=PT266&lpg=PT...
http://books.google.es/books?id=SHVefl1GDccC&pg=PA31&lpg=PA3... (foot of p. 31).
I don't think it would sound very authentic to call them "parlor palms" here, and indeed "xate/chate" could refer to other related palms. I think it would probably be best to put "xate palms", with "xate" in italics. I'd use the spelling with an x because it is definitely more common. (X for ch is standard in various Mesoamerican languages.)
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Note added at 8 hrs (2013-09-28 09:46:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
(Second paragraph above slightly garbled: please read "listed for Ageratina ligustrina in Wikipedia").
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 hrs (2013-09-29 00:02:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Hi Estela:
I have also been able to open Emiliano's link, and it does clearly connect the name cha'te' to Ageratina ligustrina. The plant I'm proposing, "xate", also spelled "chate", is certainly different: one of a group of small palms. To avoid confusion, I'll call the palm "xate".
In principle, "chate" in your text could refer to either. Since Ageratina ligustrina is definitely grown for medicinal purposes in Guatemala, it is likely enough the these peasants grow it to sell. Then again, there is quite definitely a thriving trade in xate from Guatemala to (mostly) the US.
The specific issue is that one of the ways outsiders are cause damage is by removing the "chate". I feel that although people might come onto these peasants' land and remove their Ageratina ligustrina, it doesn't seem likely that this happens on a significant scale. Although there is interest in the medicinal properties of Ageratina ligustrina, and some may be gathered for research purposes, I doubt there is a sufficient international market in this plant at the moment to make it a major problem for these peasants.
On the other hand, there is a thriving market in xate palms, which these peasants may well be growing as a cash crop, and it seems quite plausible that people come onto their land and steal their crops of these palms, just as they come and steal the timber.
The other point is that according to the Mexican source, cha'te' is a Tzotzil name for Ageratina ligustrina. Tzotzil is spoken in the northern and central part of Chiapas, in other words, not the part that adjoins Guatemala, which lies to the south, and not, as far as I can tell, in Guatemala itself. So although it is possible that these Guatemalan peasant use the name cha'te' for Ageratina ligustrina, it doesn't seem very likely; it's apparently a name used in Mexico.
I can't find any Guatemalan sources in which the name chate is associated with the medicinal plant. The following thesis from San Carlos University, Guatemala is a pharmaceutical report on diuretic properties several plants including Ageratina ligustrina, which they call Eupatorium semialatum (one of its alternative scientific names; see Wikipedia). They use the common name "bacché", and list its common names as "bacché, baqcé, barretillo, chicajil, hoja lisa" (see section 3.4, pp. 5-6):
http://biblioteca.usac.edu.gt/tesis/06/06_0693.pdf
And here's another one, on anti-inflammatory properties, again calling the plant "Eupatorium semialatum (bacché)" (in the title), and listing the common names as "Baqcé, Barretillo, Chicajol, Hoja Lisa, Q’ezci káy, Sal de venado" (p. 44).
http://biblioteca.usac.edu.gt/tesis/06/06_2638.pdf
If "chate" were in use in Guatemala to refer to this plant, it would surely have been included among the common names listed in these theses. I conclude that it is not, and that "chate" in your text refers to "xate".
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 23 hrs (2013-09-29 01:34:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Just to be clear, there's no suggestion that the peasants would be growing the decorative palm for ornamental purposes of their own. Either it simply grows naturally on their land or (more probably) they are growing it to sell, ultimately for export. As I say, there is a thriving and long-established trade in xate palms.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day5 hrs (2013-09-29 07:43:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Sorry to add yet another note: this is turning into a thesis itself!
I should say that for the reasons stated I think xate is more likely, but it is not absolutely certain. Given that this seems to be from Petén, which is the northernmost part of Guatemala adjoining Chiapas, it is possible that this peasant has a connection with Mexico and is using the Tzotzil word for Ageratina ligustrina.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day6 hrs (2013-09-29 07:53:42 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
And Petén definitely fits the xate/chate palm; that is precisely where it is grown:
"La recolección de xate en el Petén es una actividad que genera empleo directo a más de 6.000 personas, y 500 más en el canal de comercialización.La totalidad del xate recolectado en Guatemala se destina a la exportación."
http://www.fao.org/docrep/007/ae159s/ae159s06.htm
It's a major part of their livelihood:
"Xate harvesting and marketing is an integral part of the economic and social livelihood of local people in and around the MBR. Approximately 4,000 xate harvesters earn an average daily wage of $5.15 for this work (Soza 1999). In some villages, more than 60% of men acquire most or part of their income through xate harvests (Ramos 2000)."
http://www.equatorinitiative.org/images/stories/2002winners/...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 days4 hrs (2013-10-01 06:06:54 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------
That's great! Thank you very much for the feedback, which is much appreciated.
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ageratina_ligustrina#Propiedade...
But the link to the name "chate" is tenuous; I can't find any confirmation of Emiliano's first source (which won't open for me), and "chate" is not among the common names listed for in Wikipedia Ageratina ligustrina ("baqcé, barretillo, chicajol, hoja liza, sal de venado") or elsewhere.
Besides, there seems no good reason why outsiders should be extracting it: possibly for pharmaceutical purposes, but I can't find any evidence that this is actually done, at least not on any significant scale.
But "xate", which is of course pronounced "chate", is definitely a Guatemalan plant that is extracted and exported. It is the name of several palms of the genus Chamaedorea, which are highly valued as ornamental plants. So outsiders extract them, like the timber.
Here's an FAO page on it:
"El xate es el nombre común de tres especies de palma de porte pequeño (Chamadorea elegans, xate hembra; Chamadorea oblongata, xate macho y Chamadorea erumpens, cambray) que crecen en condiciones de sombra bajo el bosque latifoliado. Sus hojas son recolectadas y exportadas a Estados Unidos, Holanda y Alemania, donde se utilizan en la industria ornamental para la confección de arreglos florales.
[...] La recolección de xate en el Petén es una actividad que genera empleo directo a más de 6.000 personas, y 500 más en el canal de comercialización.La totalidad del xate recolectado en Guatemala se destina a la exportación."
http://www.fao.org/docrep/007/ae159s/ae159s06.htm
And there's a lot more detail in this thesis, which identifies xate primarily as Chamadorea elegans, commonly known in English as the parlor palm. See especially pp. 4-5 and p. 11 on extraction of xate for export, which dates back to the 1890s.
http://biblioteca.usac.edu.gt/tesis/06/06_2559.pdf
The spelling "chate" is also found for Chamaedorea palms, particularly C. elegans:
http://books.google.es/books?id=STrAt8uYb-QC&pg=PT266&lpg=PT...
http://books.google.es/books?id=SHVefl1GDccC&pg=PA31&lpg=PA3... (foot of p. 31).
I don't think it would sound very authentic to call them "parlor palms" here, and indeed "xate/chate" could refer to other related palms. I think it would probably be best to put "xate palms", with "xate" in italics. I'd use the spelling with an x because it is definitely more common. (X for ch is standard in various Mesoamerican languages.)
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs (2013-09-28 09:46:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
(Second paragraph above slightly garbled: please read "listed for Ageratina ligustrina in Wikipedia").
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 hrs (2013-09-29 00:02:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Hi Estela:
I have also been able to open Emiliano's link, and it does clearly connect the name cha'te' to Ageratina ligustrina. The plant I'm proposing, "xate", also spelled "chate", is certainly different: one of a group of small palms. To avoid confusion, I'll call the palm "xate".
In principle, "chate" in your text could refer to either. Since Ageratina ligustrina is definitely grown for medicinal purposes in Guatemala, it is likely enough the these peasants grow it to sell. Then again, there is quite definitely a thriving trade in xate from Guatemala to (mostly) the US.
The specific issue is that one of the ways outsiders are cause damage is by removing the "chate". I feel that although people might come onto these peasants' land and remove their Ageratina ligustrina, it doesn't seem likely that this happens on a significant scale. Although there is interest in the medicinal properties of Ageratina ligustrina, and some may be gathered for research purposes, I doubt there is a sufficient international market in this plant at the moment to make it a major problem for these peasants.
On the other hand, there is a thriving market in xate palms, which these peasants may well be growing as a cash crop, and it seems quite plausible that people come onto their land and steal their crops of these palms, just as they come and steal the timber.
The other point is that according to the Mexican source, cha'te' is a Tzotzil name for Ageratina ligustrina. Tzotzil is spoken in the northern and central part of Chiapas, in other words, not the part that adjoins Guatemala, which lies to the south, and not, as far as I can tell, in Guatemala itself. So although it is possible that these Guatemalan peasant use the name cha'te' for Ageratina ligustrina, it doesn't seem very likely; it's apparently a name used in Mexico.
I can't find any Guatemalan sources in which the name chate is associated with the medicinal plant. The following thesis from San Carlos University, Guatemala is a pharmaceutical report on diuretic properties several plants including Ageratina ligustrina, which they call Eupatorium semialatum (one of its alternative scientific names; see Wikipedia). They use the common name "bacché", and list its common names as "bacché, baqcé, barretillo, chicajil, hoja lisa" (see section 3.4, pp. 5-6):
http://biblioteca.usac.edu.gt/tesis/06/06_0693.pdf
And here's another one, on anti-inflammatory properties, again calling the plant "Eupatorium semialatum (bacché)" (in the title), and listing the common names as "Baqcé, Barretillo, Chicajol, Hoja Lisa, Q’ezci káy, Sal de venado" (p. 44).
http://biblioteca.usac.edu.gt/tesis/06/06_2638.pdf
If "chate" were in use in Guatemala to refer to this plant, it would surely have been included among the common names listed in these theses. I conclude that it is not, and that "chate" in your text refers to "xate".
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 23 hrs (2013-09-29 01:34:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Just to be clear, there's no suggestion that the peasants would be growing the decorative palm for ornamental purposes of their own. Either it simply grows naturally on their land or (more probably) they are growing it to sell, ultimately for export. As I say, there is a thriving and long-established trade in xate palms.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day5 hrs (2013-09-29 07:43:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Sorry to add yet another note: this is turning into a thesis itself!
I should say that for the reasons stated I think xate is more likely, but it is not absolutely certain. Given that this seems to be from Petén, which is the northernmost part of Guatemala adjoining Chiapas, it is possible that this peasant has a connection with Mexico and is using the Tzotzil word for Ageratina ligustrina.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day6 hrs (2013-09-29 07:53:42 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
And Petén definitely fits the xate/chate palm; that is precisely where it is grown:
"La recolección de xate en el Petén es una actividad que genera empleo directo a más de 6.000 personas, y 500 más en el canal de comercialización.La totalidad del xate recolectado en Guatemala se destina a la exportación."
http://www.fao.org/docrep/007/ae159s/ae159s06.htm
It's a major part of their livelihood:
"Xate harvesting and marketing is an integral part of the economic and social livelihood of local people in and around the MBR. Approximately 4,000 xate harvesters earn an average daily wage of $5.15 for this work (Soza 1999). In some villages, more than 60% of men acquire most or part of their income through xate harvests (Ramos 2000)."
http://www.equatorinitiative.org/images/stories/2002winners/...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 days4 hrs (2013-10-01 06:06:54 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------
That's great! Thank you very much for the feedback, which is much appreciated.
Note from asker:
| Thank you Charles. I always appreciate your documentation ... I was not able to open one of the links previously provided; will have a look at yours now. Yes, I remembered last night that in one of the Mayan languages "X" is pronounced "sh", but did not think of looking it up this morning, until I read your feedback. I did read a lot about the scientific name of the plant and its multiple uses, but from my reading of many websites I could not make the direct connection to 'xate' until now that I read your information. Thanks again! |
| HI Charles, I have now able to find a direct link to "chate" from Emiliano's feedback. I wonder if the campesinos are more likely to collect/harvest "chate" to use it and to sell it in the markets for medicinal purposes rather than ornamental purposes (I think you and Emiliano are referring to 2 different plants: "chate" and "xate" ... With all the information I now have about this, I need to decide which is the one that goes in this document. Will get back to you when I find more info. |
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Great help, Charles. You are a terrific researcher and translator!"
3 hrs
Emiliano Pantoja
Spain
Spain
Native in Spanish
Spain
Lawyer and Translator
Native in: Spanish 
Works in: French to Spanish, English to Spanish, Italian to Spanish, and 4 more.
remove the vegetation
Chate= Ageratina ligustrina
http://www.semahn.chiapas.gob.mx/portal/recorrido_sanjose/ch...
http://biblioteca.usac.edu.gt/tesis/02/02_1431.pdf
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Note added at 5 horas (2013-09-28 07:11:38 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
"El suelo y subsuelo del terreno elegido esta formado por una buena capa
vegetal que hace que la vegetación sea abundante, actualmente se tienen
terrenos ociosos de siembra, otros sectores del terreno tiene sembrado
cafeto con su protección de gravileas altas, otras secciones tienen árboles
frutales, de sombra y vegetación variada de pequeña dimensión como el CHATE
o pacaya, pero que lo hace atractivo para la diversidad de color y
ornamentación de la arquitectura que tendrá el centro cultural-recreativo.
Aspectos que la vegetación existente dará es el confort, minimizar la fuerza
del viento y reflexión de la luz. " P 104
NOMBRE TZOTZIL: Ch’ate’
NOMBRE CIENTÍFICO:Ageratina ligustrina
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Note added at 1 día4 horas (2013-09-29 06:44:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Without more context it’s hard to know the exact meaning but I think Chate here means chate and the rest of vegetation (not only chate plants) they usually use in their everyday lives (there’s no need to wonder what they use it for in the translation). It seems to me that they are complaining about the way they are being deprived from their land, about how the outsiders are sacking their scarce valuable goods (with the underlying idea that there’s a waste of resources)
http://www.semahn.chiapas.gob.mx/portal/recorrido_sanjose/ch...
http://biblioteca.usac.edu.gt/tesis/02/02_1431.pdf
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 horas (2013-09-28 07:11:38 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
"El suelo y subsuelo del terreno elegido esta formado por una buena capa
vegetal que hace que la vegetación sea abundante, actualmente se tienen
terrenos ociosos de siembra, otros sectores del terreno tiene sembrado
cafeto con su protección de gravileas altas, otras secciones tienen árboles
frutales, de sombra y vegetación variada de pequeña dimensión como el CHATE
o pacaya, pero que lo hace atractivo para la diversidad de color y
ornamentación de la arquitectura que tendrá el centro cultural-recreativo.
Aspectos que la vegetación existente dará es el confort, minimizar la fuerza
del viento y reflexión de la luz. " P 104
NOMBRE TZOTZIL: Ch’ate’
NOMBRE CIENTÍFICO:Ageratina ligustrina
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 día4 horas (2013-09-29 06:44:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Without more context it’s hard to know the exact meaning but I think Chate here means chate and the rest of vegetation (not only chate plants) they usually use in their everyday lives (there’s no need to wonder what they use it for in the translation). It seems to me that they are complaining about the way they are being deprived from their land, about how the outsiders are sacking their scarce valuable goods (with the underlying idea that there’s a waste of resources)
Note from asker:
| WOW! Thank you for the reference, Emiliano ... I followed the links you provided and I am trying to understand what they would do with this specific plant to merit mentioning in the campesinos' activities. Perhaps used for medicinal purposes?/ sold in the markets? Will get back to you when I understand it a little better. |
| Emiliano, I was wondering if you found "chate" in any of the sites you visited. I can see the other names, the scientific names and names under which plants are known, but could not read anything about "chate." Did you? |
| Thank you Emiliano. I now was able to follow the link to Chate, a plant I now know is used for many medicinal purposes (there is a lot of scientific information/research being done at the local and international levels), so I wonder if instead of "remove the vegetation" it would actually be better to say "collecting/harvesting the chate"? (this, I think may be for economic purposes ... to use it and to sell it in the markets. What do you think? |
Discussion
I finally heard from the client who commissioned the translation. She actually agreed with one of the translations. Here is her note to me when I communicated the dilemma:
"I believe that your translation for the word is correct as "Xate" -is a type of palm (there are various species) and it is used to make roofing on houses and small outdoor buildings. You will often see road-side comedores in Guatemala with xate roofs. It was also a huge export crop for the flower industry in north America and I know that a couple of groups in El Peten, Guatemala are trying to re-grow this native plant in the area and stop its international sale. You can probably just use the phrase "palm leaves" to translate it."
Now I know SACANDO EL CHATE the chate was being looted/stolen/taken.
FYI: the link to the documentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_UrTGlJCvI
Here is the original text (paragraph before and after “sacando el chate”:
“Vamos a luchar otra vez para ver si lo recuperamos. Viendo la desolación que sufrió la finca, nos organizamos nuevamente y sentamos como una sucursal de protección en el área. Desde el 2008 que empezamos a trabajar duramente, peleando con un grupo que totalmente aquí, descavando piezas arqueológicas, SACANDO EL CHATE, sacando la madera, destruyendo la montaña. Y yo no sé qué le paso a CONAP y Defensores, porque supuestamente ellos son los encargados de cuidar la naturaleza ¿Verdad? Pero ellos dejaron que hicieran lo que ellos querían”.
I will be back to you, when I hear from my sources here. Thanks, Estela