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l’anima in metallo e pelle dei biker
micropallinatura

Glossary entry

Italian term or phrase:

anche di pattuizioni non riportate

English translation:

(nor) under any agreement not contained herein

Added to glossary by Anna ZANNELLA
May 1, 2013 19:15
11 yrs ago
11 viewers *
Italian term

anche di pattuizioni non riportate

Italian to English Law/Patents Law: Contract(s) service and maintenance
....e che nessuna delle Parti è stata indotta a sottoscrivere il presente contratto in forza *anche di pattuizioni* nello stesso *non riportate*.

I understand what the individual words mean: I'm just not clear as to how it fits. Thanks
Proposed translations (English)
3 +2 under terms and conditions not contained herein
4 +2 under this or any other agreement
4 +1 by any agreement not contained herein
References
similar (same) clause

Discussion

Paul O'Brien May 6, 2013:
I'm a bit worried about that "nor" that has crept into the asker's phrase. Can we see it in the context of the whole sentence?
torjman May 3, 2013:
I suggest for " anche di pattuizioni non riportate" Althrough it is not stipulated .
Paul O'Brien May 2, 2013:
This one is ... ... believe me. When she decides, everyone agrees. Great consensus builder. But sometimes she's in court and it takes her a while to get back. Watch this space ...
Sebastiano Massimo Barbagallo May 2, 2013:
@ Paul I am afraid lawyers are not renowned for being prone to consensus... ;-)
Paul O'Brien May 2, 2013:
So, what have we decided on? Have we got some type of consensus?
Paul O'Brien May 2, 2013:
I don't agree that "anche" is an error with legal implications. In my view that's ascribing too much importance to waffle that we have seen time and time again. I agree with Sebastiano on "indurre". There is the issue of potential pressure, deriving from agreements or clauses of other contracts previously entered into but which have nothing to do with the contract currently being signed.
James (Jim) Davis May 2, 2013:
On "riportate" I associate this word with direct quotes in Italian legal texts and not with "rinvii" and "rimandi".
Sebastiano Massimo Barbagallo May 2, 2013:
@ Thomas You are wrong also on this point. This is not necessarily a common law contract. The use of the passive verb "è stata indotta... in forza di..." obviously refers to some sort of "moderate pressure", which may well derive, for instance, from a preliminary agreement. I really think that the use of the English verb "to induce" is the best choice to translate "è stata indotta (in forza di)".
James (Jim) Davis May 2, 2013:
Having read Cristiana's reference I think the "anche" is a mistake legally in the Italian and should ask the client what to do about it.
Sebastiano Massimo Barbagallo May 2, 2013:
@ Thomas I do not agree with you on the meaning of "non riportate". In my view, "non riportate" just means "non incluse", "non contenute" (not contained).
Thomas Roberts May 2, 2013:
pressure-duress Under the common law you can't pressurise someone to conclude a contract, it's known as undue influence and is a definite no-no.
James (Jim) Davis May 2, 2013:
On "anche"
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/italian_to_english/advertising_pub...
Sebastiano Massimo Barbagallo May 2, 2013:
On coercion we may agree, it is too strong. But the Italian verb "indurre" undoubtedly conveys the idea of a moderate "pressure" on the parties, which is confirmed by the use of a passive verb ("è stata indotta"). Ergo, I think that "None of the parties has been induced to enter into this contract by any agreement not contained herein” is a good option.
Paul O'Brien May 2, 2013:
That's a point. Just sent it to a lawyer friend of mine for remarks.
Thomas Roberts May 2, 2013:
Just had a further thought If "riportate" is taken to mean simply referred to it seems to gel a bit better, including the "anche".
Hence, "under the terms of any agreement, irrespective of whether referred to herein".
FinWord May 2, 2013:
On coercion/inducement, I agree it would be going too far (although Italian contracts frequently add an article on the signature page to that effect which is initialled by the parties). On anche...it's an idiomatic thing. I don't have a problem with the use of anche in Italian, but in this case I personally would not bring it across into English.
Thomas Roberts May 2, 2013:
from a legal point of view it wouldn't make sense for it to refer to coercion, as any contracts entered into under duress are voidable.
By extension, any clause of another contract referring to a clause agreed to under duress would be void.
I think it simply refers to a commitment made in a preliminary agreement, which may have been referred to in the terms of this contract (hence the "also").
FinWord May 2, 2013:
Anche As I pointed out yesterday, the anche is misleading. I would exclude the idea pattuizioni refers to a statutory obligation (agree with Thomas). I'm not so sure it is addressing coercion or agreements between unequal parties either (which is often explicitly dealt with in those little articles that get initialled on the signature page in Italian contracts). I do think the concept of "sulla comune volontà" is implied.
Sebastiano Massimo Barbagallo May 2, 2013:
The job of a good translator is to deliver a good translation, which properly conveys the meaning of the source text. I think that "also" would be superfluous and potentially misleading, and that "None of the parties has been induced/forced to enter into this contract by any agreement not contained herein” is a good translation. As you can see, I accepted your suggestion concerning "agreement".
Thomas Roberts May 2, 2013:
although the job of a translator is not to sort out technical mistakes in the original document
Sebastiano Massimo Barbagallo May 2, 2013:
I agree with Paul. "Anche" is obviously superfluous (that is why I put "also" between brackets). The meaning is that the parties decided to enter into the agreement only of their own free will.
James (Jim) Davis May 2, 2013:
@Paul I agree with Sebastiano's take on anche, or rather he agrees with mine.
Paul O'Brien May 2, 2013:
just asked an Italian colleague of mine, 40 years in the business, who says there is no need to translate "anche". And no, I did not "induce" her into saying it.
Paul O'Brien May 2, 2013:
why presume that the person who wrote this is an absolute genius who with just one small conjunction manages to include all provisions of law about which he/she otherwise does not need to speak?
James (Jim) Davis May 2, 2013:
Anche Anche clearly means "in forza di pattuizioni e anche in forza di altre cose", where the "altre cose" could for example (my suggestion) be provisions of the law or anything else. The word "anche" is just like "e.g.". It is much easier to ignore it, but not right. It is very amiss of the writer to put the word in here without further specification, but that is what he/she did.
Sebastiano Massimo Barbagallo May 2, 2013:
Another possibility is that in the contract there is no provision “forcing/inducing” the parties to enter into it. If this is true, the clause, although not perfectly formulated (I am referring to "anche"), may simply mean that the parties signed the contract purely of their own free will, i.e. without being forced/induced to do so (also) by any agreements not contained therein. My suggestion is: “None of the parties has been induced/forced to enter into this contract (also) by any agreements not contained herein”.
Thomas Roberts May 2, 2013:
Whilst it may be a bit a misnomer to state that the contract itself asserts an obligation to conclude that contract, there could be a term in the contract acknowledging an existing obligation to conclude the contract. As there could be a separate contract to that effect.
I don't think you could take pattuizioni to refer to a statutory obligation.
Paul O'Brien May 2, 2013:
Must be because I'm a bad translator.
James (Jim) Davis May 1, 2013:
@Paulley So why did you bother with the terms and conditions in the first place?
Paul O'Brien May 1, 2013:
i.e. "The Chamber shall not be bound by any promises or agreements not contained herein, nor shall such relieve Advertiser/Agency of their obligations hereunder". Or "Any oral representations or agreements not contained herein and made prior to the date of this contract is of no legal force or effect and are hereby rescinded" etc.
Paul O'Brien May 1, 2013:
what about "under agreements not contained herein"? Gets a lot of Ghits too.
James (Jim) Davis May 1, 2013:
@Paul Is "terms and conditions" a precise synonym for a contract or a "pattuizione"?
FinWord May 1, 2013:
di pattuizioni non riportate IMHO...that really does go beyond events and circumstances that might compel to formal agreements that would compel/oblige....i.e., a contract in the anglo-saxon context be it written or verbal.
Paul O'Brien May 1, 2013:
none of the parties is being forced to sign this contract under terms and conditions not contained herein.
James (Jim) Davis May 1, 2013:
Anche I see the anche not as limited to meaning under agreements either in the contract or outside it, but that they are not forced to enter into the contract by side agreements or by anything else outside or inside the contract or anywhere for that matter. I see it as a "fra altro". The corollary would be that they enter into the contract freely. I don't think the use of "anche" here is intelligent, but it can't be ignored in translation.
FinWord May 1, 2013:
anche? The "anche" is misleading. No one enters into a contract because the contract itself requires them to enter into that contract (non so se mi spiego!). There is no side agreement or master agreement (or agreement of any type) that would compel or oblige either of the parties to enter into this agreement.
Anna ZANNELLA (asker) May 1, 2013:
Thomas, sorry, could you explain how that flows: that neither Party has been induced/forced into signing this Agreement, ... pursuant to/under this or any other agreement. ?

Proposed translations

+2
29 mins
Selected

under terms and conditions not contained herein

.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2013-05-01 21:25:46 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

under agreements not contained herein
Peer comment(s):
agree James (Jim) Davis : What about the anche? As a meticulous client once said to me. I often used to until a client explained that the anche changed the whole meaning of a sentence and I think it does here too. Not just agreements but also provisions of the law for example.
55 mins
What about it? I'm for binning it./I wouldn't mind too much what the client says and how he/she "explains" things and how this changes meanings. Where does it say in the asker's question about provisions of law?
agree CristianaC : with agreement
13 hrs
Something went wrong...
3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "best I could interpret fom the debate .. thanks"
+2
5 mins

under this or any other agreement

Anything more literal would risk sounding contrived

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 25 mins (2013-05-01 19:41:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Neither party is signing because it is under an obligation to do so

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 14 hrs (2013-05-02 09:35:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Whilst the "anche" suggests "in forza di pattuizioni nello stesso riportate" along with "in forza di pattuizioni nello stesso non riportate" (which may sound silly in legal terms, but that's what they wrote), if you want to assume that the "anche" is a mistake, then the translation becomes simply "under any other agreement".
Peer comment(s):
agree FinWord : on the basis of any other agreement not forming part of the present agreement
1 hr
agree James (Jim) Davis : Wouldn't the "anche" here imply "in forza di qualsiasi cosa comprese eventuali pattuizioni ... "?
1 hr
Something went wrong...
+1
13 hrs

by any agreement not contained herein

Another possibility is that in the contract there is no provision “forcing/inducing” the parties to enter into it. If this is true, the clause, although not perfectly formulated (I am referring to "anche"), may simply mean that the parties signed the contract purely of their own free will, i.e. without being forced/induced to do so (also) by any agreement not contained therein. My suggestion is: “None of the parties has been induced/forced to enter into this contract by any agreement not contained herein”.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 14 hrs (2013-05-02 10:13:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"None of the parties has been induced to enter into this contract by any agreement not contained herein”
Peer comment(s):
agree CristianaC
30 mins
thank you.
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

14 hrs
Reference:

similar (same) clause

Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Paul O'Brien : excellent. nice find.
27 mins
thank you Paul
Something went wrong...
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